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foreign

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foreign

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good afternoon good morning good evening

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wherever you may be Across the Nation

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around the world I am Leah Prime

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broadcasting live thank you so much for

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joining the invisible night school on

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this Wednesday evening right before

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Thanksgiving

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whether you're with us live or catching

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us on a replay we are so glad that

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you're here the invisible night school

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is a small Consortium of researchers

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exploring a wide variety of numinous and

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Arcane subjects you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com and go ahead

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and like share and subscribe to our

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Channel and please join our Discord uh

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there's a link included in the video

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description so tonight our very own

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Louis caitano will be leading a

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discussion on the evolution of complex

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life I will get him added to the stream

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and I'll also be welcoming of course one

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of our lovely co-hosts Campbell

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um this week Nick is on uh family Duty I

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guess

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um out doing things that normal social

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people do like spending time with his

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kid and going out to dinner which leaves

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the rest of us here to fill in the gaps

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and hopefully have a fruitful discussion

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um super excited to see you here tonight

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sways

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spooky

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Simon

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this is like who's who

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um Swank

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it's great to see some of our regulars

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show up week after week um it's really

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exciting to uh see a little bit of an

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audience start forming and building up a

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community associated with the show so

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super excited to see everyone here

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tonight

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yeah and I'm looking forward to this

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combo especially uh after last week with

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rather I think it spiraled into this

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perfectly and the in Louisiana your

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information that you were bringing to

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the table was so cool I kept kept on

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wanting to like hear more and more so

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this was excellent

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yeah the the general like viewer

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responds to Lisa's comments last week

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were overwhelmingly positive

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um and I think

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you know behind the scenes we've had

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conversations about opportunities to

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broaden the subjects we approach on the

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show both

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to draw on our individual interests more

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and also to avoid pidgin and Hauling

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ourselves as a UFO podcast I when I

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started this I remember thinking to

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myself that I wanted to make a UFO

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podcast for people who hate UFOs and I

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feel like the more we kind of brought it

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out and touch other interesting and uh

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numinous and complex subjects the more

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we're going to also cultivate a

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broader audience and and fan base that

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we can work with and learn from and grow

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with so I'm super excited about it

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and a lot of these subjects are

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interrelated in unexpected ways I

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certainly didn't realize how many

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different connections there are under

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the surface of a variety of these things

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like when I started looking at UFOs I

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ended up in uh you know

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magnetohydrodynamics physics papers and

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then on the other side of it the

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Consciousness studies and near-death

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experiences and things Who would know

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that those things can even conceptually

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go together until you dive into it

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right yeah

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good things I was gonna I was gonna ask

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how things are in um in your world's

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Campbell Lewis how are you guys doing

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yeah I'm doing well

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um yeah UFO stuff it's everybody's been

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kind of on a holding pattern until this

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big report comes out right so I've been

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waiting to see what people say seeing

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how the community is reacting to the

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delay it's kind of a quiet time now

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though I think and uh you're we're

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seeing that in the community of some

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little Rumblings here and there uh Luis

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what have you been up to

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I've just been finishing some books that

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I've been reading including um one by

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Jason colavito

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I put a review of that on my channel

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this book here

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and talks about lovecraft's um you know

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impact on our ancient astronaut and

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other you know alternative archeology

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um tropes

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even though he was a complete atheist um

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I think it would have been actually

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horrified to see how much his ideas have

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been kind of used to promote

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pseudoscience

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it seems like a very timely read too

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because Graham Hancock just put out a

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series on Netflix I believe

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the ancient Apocalypse series

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yeah that talks about like uh Atlantis

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and other sort of anti-diluvian

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civilizations

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so

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colavita mentions that

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um it's interesting how you often get

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like a switch in between which theory is

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more popular ancient astronauts at times

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and then it switches to the Atlanta

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style myths

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it kind of goes into the re the social

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reasons why that might be in the book as

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well

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yeah call of duto's been a part of the

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game for a long time you said the

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publication date was 2005. yeah that was

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his first book

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right

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he was running a um uh chat uh or a

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forum online in the early 2000s about

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ancient Mysteries

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and he was kind of initially when he was

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like a teenager he believed a lot of

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that stuff but then he became more

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skeptical when he saw the logical

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contradictions and things like that and

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then he set up that web forum and then

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kind of compiled that together into the

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book

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mm-hmm I've uh encountered Jason

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colavito's work numerous times in my

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research on the UFO subject in general

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from an academic perspective he has done

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a significant amount of work on the

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history of the National Security State

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in relation to UFOs and the

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use of ancient astronaut theory uh by

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Foreign actor specifically former Soviet

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Union to try to destabilize the domestic

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United States population with propaganda

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strategies related to interestingly

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racist themes that colavito touches on

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frequently in these

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historical Works where you you know yeah

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exactly and you sort of say it so if

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since the ancient culture doesn't seem

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to have been capable of doing this from

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our perspective it must have been some

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kind of super civilization you know yeah

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the Soviets were actually notorious for

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trying to stir up racial Strife in the

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probably wasn't super hard right

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there already a lot of fractures in the

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society that they could exploit but yeah

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um ancient astronauts at least for a

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time was one of those

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things that they used and um some of

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those myths that the Soviets snuck in

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um actually made their way into Von

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daniken's books

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even though Von daniken is like a

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conservative anti-communist type it's

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kind of ironic that right you know

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Communist Regime intelligence service

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propaganda was

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you know making its way into his

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propaganda

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and he he wrote uh as a chariot of the

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Gods is that right

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and what was the basic premise of that I

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don't recall well he was actually deeply

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influenced by mourning of The Magicians

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and he was actually sued by Paul and

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bergier to actually cite them in future

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editions of the book

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but um he was basically I think it was

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just a scam for him because he was a

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Swiss hotelier and um he was embezzling

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money to like travel around the world

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but then he made that because he was

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like doing research

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so this is like a damn ski story that's

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what it reminds me yeah exactly it

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probably was inspired by adamsky in some

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of the contactees to an extent but um

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yeah um I mean he just his premise was

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that uh aliens had visited the Earth in

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Antiquity and uh influenced human

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cultural development

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um gave us the tools for building the

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pyramids Etc and maybe even engineered

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right I mean

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there's this swaths of

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ancient

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alien slash alternative history books

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that were coming out in the 60s and 70s

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that I think very much laid the

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foundation for many of the talking

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points we see today I think of worlds in

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collision by

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villikovsky yes I think that's his last

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name

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um Zechariah sitchin Von daniken adamski

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and of course then we see these talking

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points and Views being eternally

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recycled again and again

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Yeah by Hancock

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um he was influenced by

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some what was a book by I think well

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different books but um Ignatius

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Donnelly's book about uh Atlantis and

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lemuria

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Donnelly was a I think he was a Indiana

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or Illinois Congressman in the

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1919th century

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um sort of around the time of blavatsky

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I think he actually influenced blavatsky

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as well because she also talked about

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like ancient civilizations and lost

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knowledge right yeah the the

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not only the ascended masters but like

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the seven root races and things like

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that right right yeah and lemurio

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Memoria yeah

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which is a big one actually um you see

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lemuria being mentioned again and again

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in the 20th century by various

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alternative archeology proponents but

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Hancock is like probably the most famous

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of the Atlantean

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um proponents he actually did dabble a

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little bit in ancient astronauts in the

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1990s like you know what Hogwart the guy

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with the the Martian face um oh Richard

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C Hoagland face on Mars science advisor

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to Walter Cronkite that was always well

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you claimed I don't even know if the guy

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has a high school diploma but no

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Hoagland is just full of crap but um

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he um he actually influenced uh Hancock

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for a while and Hancock was open to the

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idea that there may have been um ancient

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Martian civilizations but then he sort

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of let that go and then reverted back to

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the traditional

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um pure human Atlantis myths

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mm-hmm

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I my only encounter with Graham Hancock

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besides just the 1990s

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consumption of Art Bell like on a

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Perpetual basis

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um was I read his book super

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Supernatural a few years ago which is

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about

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um basically like mushroom Cults and

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fairies and the sort of perennialist

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associations of

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um hallucinogens and psychedelics and

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how they kind of tie into these numinous

283
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,000
experiences

284
00:12:40,910 --> 00:12:38,880
um I not I say this without having an

285
00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:40,920
exhaustive familiarity with his Cannon

286
00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:43,740
but I thought it was an interesting book

287
00:12:46,730 --> 00:12:44,940
but

288
00:12:49,210 --> 00:12:46,740
um it also feels like it may be the one

289
00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:49,220
that is perhaps the most academically

290
00:12:55,069 --> 00:12:52,200
defensible compared to a lot of what

291
00:12:56,990 --> 00:12:55,079
other things he's been involved in yes I

292
00:12:59,090 --> 00:12:57,000
appreciate Brooke calling this out here

293
00:13:00,650 --> 00:12:59,100
Hoagland had an art bell pipeline he

294
00:13:02,269 --> 00:13:00,660
really did

295
00:13:04,009 --> 00:13:02,279
um showed up on the on the show

296
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:04,019
constantly kind of the some of the best

297
00:13:08,930 --> 00:13:06,360
episodes were when Rick Richard Hoagland

298
00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:08,940
would be stuck across the debate table

299
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:11,399
with someone that had actual science

300
00:13:17,810 --> 00:13:13,920
credentials and you had to listen

301
00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:17,820
to two people talk uh and debate I think

302
00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:20,399
there's an argument where or a debate

303
00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:22,320
show where he talked to like even Seth

304
00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:24,600
schostak at seti

305
00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:25,380
um

306
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:27,120
which is like bringing a knife to a

307
00:13:37,610 --> 00:13:36,410
so I just um but before we jump into the

308
00:13:41,090 --> 00:13:37,620
complex

309
00:13:43,550 --> 00:13:41,100
life uh discussion which Lewis will be

310
00:13:45,230 --> 00:13:43,560
leading tonight so I'm just back from uh

311
00:13:48,769 --> 00:13:45,240
like a four day silent Meditation

312
00:13:51,650 --> 00:13:48,779
Retreat at a booze Center which was my

313
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:51,660
first foray into this world and this

314
00:13:56,509 --> 00:13:53,279
experience

315
00:13:59,090 --> 00:13:56,519
um really fascinating extremely austere

316
00:14:01,490 --> 00:13:59,100
like 10 hours of silent meditation a day

317
00:14:02,990 --> 00:14:01,500
from when I arrived on campus on

318
00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:03,000
Thursday through when I departed Monday

319
00:14:08,569 --> 00:14:06,120
afternoon I didn't say a word except for

320
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,579
about a five minute conversation with

321
00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:10,800
the retreat instructor where I talked

322
00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:13,740
about the genres and Robert burbella and

323
00:14:18,290 --> 00:14:15,720
access like acts like access

324
00:14:21,290 --> 00:14:18,300
concentration associated with meditation

325
00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:21,300
and

326
00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:24,120
it's it's interesting my I've been asked

327
00:14:28,129 --> 00:14:26,940
a lot about my experience and takeaways

328
00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:28,139
from it

329
00:14:34,430 --> 00:14:29,880
and

330
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,440
processing

331
00:14:40,750 --> 00:14:36,959
um but I I

332
00:14:43,850 --> 00:14:40,760
would assess the time there is

333
00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:43,860
overwhelmingly good complicated in the

334
00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:46,740
sense that it is arduous and difficult

335
00:14:52,009 --> 00:14:49,380
to sit like that in intense meditation

336
00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:52,019
in a silent environment

337
00:14:54,889 --> 00:14:52,920
um

338
00:14:56,389 --> 00:14:54,899
and kind of

339
00:14:59,389 --> 00:14:56,399
um not just spend time like that

340
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,399
internally but also the associated I

341
00:15:03,889 --> 00:15:01,199
would say ego unwinding that happens

342
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:03,899
when you're in that kind of state

343
00:15:08,930 --> 00:15:06,480
um but like many other things in my life

344
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,940
it falls squarely into type 2 fun where

345
00:15:13,009 --> 00:15:11,040
when I got in my car Monday afternoon I

346
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,019
was like I'm never [\h__\h] do that again

347
00:15:17,090 --> 00:15:15,360
like this is awful I'm never doing it I

348
00:15:20,750 --> 00:15:17,100
can't wait to get home and then like

349
00:15:22,670 --> 00:15:20,760
last night like 36 hours later I was

350
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:22,680
like man I really hope I get the chance

351
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:24,720
to do this again soon this was really

352
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,980
cool

353
00:15:29,750 --> 00:15:27,600
um and I can still feel some of the

354
00:15:31,850 --> 00:15:29,760
reverberations internally like my mind

355
00:15:35,389 --> 00:15:31,860
is much quieter

356
00:15:37,730 --> 00:15:35,399
um it certainly helped helps me feel

357
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:37,740
much more confident in these sustained

358
00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:39,300
states of

359
00:15:42,769 --> 00:15:40,380
um

360
00:15:44,329 --> 00:15:42,779
internal attention I wasn't sure how I'd

361
00:15:46,430 --> 00:15:44,339
do sort of without the normal

362
00:15:49,069 --> 00:15:46,440
distractions

363
00:15:51,050 --> 00:15:49,079
um and socialization but it also made

364
00:15:53,389 --> 00:15:51,060
very clear to me that

365
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:53,399
um working up to more sustained Retreat

366
00:15:58,250 --> 00:15:55,440
practices like 10 days or two weeks or

367
00:16:00,110 --> 00:15:58,260
even a month is much further down the

368
00:16:02,569 --> 00:16:00,120
road than I expected

369
00:16:05,870 --> 00:16:02,579
um but how a very cool experience

370
00:16:07,189 --> 00:16:05,880
overall how was it guided I was

371
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:07,199
wondering about that

372
00:16:11,150 --> 00:16:08,880
um do you have to do sort of prep stuff

373
00:16:12,769 --> 00:16:11,160
in advance is it silent the entire time

374
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:12,779
is somebody sort of talking instructing

375
00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:14,639
as everyone is silent how does that work

376
00:16:18,350 --> 00:16:17,100
it's it's a great question

377
00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:18,360
um

378
00:16:24,350 --> 00:16:21,420
so the typically these Retreats will

379
00:16:26,689 --> 00:16:24,360
have some kind of guiding subject and

380
00:16:30,170 --> 00:16:26,699
the the nature of this retreat was the

381
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:30,180
Brahma vaharas which are those four kind

382
00:16:34,430 --> 00:16:31,440
of

383
00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:34,440
um cultivated States in Buddhism there's

384
00:16:41,689 --> 00:16:38,220
compassion loving kindness

385
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:41,699
um sympathetic joy and equanimity

386
00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:45,360
and so we would have

387
00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:48,120
our own silent meditation without any

388
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:51,240
sort of instructor involvement for about

389
00:16:58,670 --> 00:16:55,680
10 hours a day broken up with sitting

390
00:16:59,629 --> 00:16:58,680
and walking and there was no

391
00:17:02,629 --> 00:16:59,639
um

392
00:17:05,329 --> 00:17:02,639
no verbal communication at all we had a

393
00:17:07,850 --> 00:17:05,339
a bell that would get wrong at 30 minute

394
00:17:08,990 --> 00:17:07,860
increments so you could time and decide

395
00:17:10,490 --> 00:17:09,000
if you're going to stay on your pillow

396
00:17:13,370 --> 00:17:10,500
versus go for a walk

397
00:17:15,230 --> 00:17:13,380
but then in addition to the meditation

398
00:17:18,289 --> 00:17:15,240
sessions there would be

399
00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:18,299
excuse me four hours a day of Dharma

400
00:17:23,329 --> 00:17:21,000
talks which for the uninitiated Dharma

401
00:17:25,250 --> 00:17:23,339
talk is I think what a Christian would

402
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:25,260
call like a homily like they would be a

403
00:17:28,429 --> 00:17:27,120
selection of readings from the poly

404
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:28,439
Canon

405
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:30,840
um well this particular retreat was not

406
00:17:35,930 --> 00:17:32,880
of a lineage

407
00:17:37,909 --> 00:17:35,940
um it was based on a lot of work of

408
00:17:40,250 --> 00:17:37,919
monastics in the Terra Vaden tradition

409
00:17:42,590 --> 00:17:40,260
which is a kind of very Orthodox in a

410
00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:42,600
sense it's very adherent to the

411
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:45,980
um original Canon the poly Cannon

412
00:17:51,890 --> 00:17:49,919
and during the Dharma talks we would uh

413
00:17:54,049 --> 00:17:51,900
the instructor would speak to us

414
00:17:58,010 --> 00:17:54,059
typically we'd open with 15-minute

415
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,020
silent practice then 30 to 45 minutes of

416
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:00,480
discussion of particular excerpts from

417
00:18:04,669 --> 00:18:03,360
the poly Canon about

418
00:18:07,490 --> 00:18:04,679
um you know

419
00:18:11,930 --> 00:18:07,500
um loving kindness or Compassion or

420
00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:11,940
Equanimity or sympathetic joy and then

421
00:18:15,470 --> 00:18:13,020
um

422
00:18:17,870 --> 00:18:15,480
the the last part of the Dharma talk

423
00:18:20,750 --> 00:18:17,880
would typically be some kind of guided

424
00:18:22,190 --> 00:18:20,760
meditation so the instructor would sit

425
00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:22,200
in the front of the room we would be all

426
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:25,740
on our pillows or on our chairs and she

427
00:18:32,090 --> 00:18:27,919
would

428
00:18:33,950 --> 00:18:32,100
in perfect meditation guiding voice tell

429
00:18:36,049 --> 00:18:33,960
us what we should think about what we

430
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,059
should cultivate where we would feel it

431
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:38,160
in our Soma like as an embodied

432
00:18:41,210 --> 00:18:40,260
experience

433
00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:41,220
um

434
00:18:44,750 --> 00:18:42,780
so that's that was really the only

435
00:18:46,970 --> 00:18:44,760
instruction provided

436
00:18:49,010 --> 00:18:46,980
for our silent Retreat time we could

437
00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:49,020
practice any kind of meditation we

438
00:18:56,450 --> 00:18:52,440
wanted so mindfulness Insight

439
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,460
um genas meta I mostly focused on meta

440
00:19:01,370 --> 00:18:58,799
and trying to get into this some of the

441
00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:01,380
genres the first or second genre which

442
00:19:05,210 --> 00:19:02,700
is

443
00:19:08,090 --> 00:19:05,220
um considered like an altered state it's

444
00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:08,100
like a ecstatic kind of feeling

445
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:12,140
um but I I will say too

446
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:15,840
attending so I have the great Fortune of

447
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:18,720
having a lot of time right now in my

448
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:21,360
life so I do have the personal time to

449
00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:25,140
invest in meditation but from a group

450
00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:27,480
dynamic perspective I did find it very

451
00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:28,980
helpful to be in a group environment

452
00:19:33,049 --> 00:19:30,840
there's just a kind of different so like

453
00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:33,059
energy to the experience

454
00:19:38,450 --> 00:19:35,640
but I also found

455
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,460
while excruciating like my hip flexors

456
00:19:42,529 --> 00:19:40,559
are still angry at me for sitting on

457
00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:42,539
that little pillow for

458
00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:45,840
30 hours or however many hours I did

459
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:46,980
um

460
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,440
it feels like this accelerated my

461
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:51,600
practice in a substantial way in such a

462
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:53,160
short period of time where it's much

463
00:19:58,010 --> 00:19:55,679
easier to access those States now when I

464
00:19:59,690 --> 00:19:58,020
sit down to meditate so it kind of in a

465
00:20:01,850 --> 00:19:59,700
sense was a jump start and you'll hear

466
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:01,860
people report this sort of the

467
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:03,960
conventional or standard hardcore

468
00:20:07,610 --> 00:20:05,520
introduction to meditation a lot of

469
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:07,620
westerners have is through a goenka or

470
00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:10,140
vipassana Retreat which are these free

471
00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:12,660
10-day Retreats that are extremely

472
00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:14,760
austere same deal like eight to ten

473
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:16,860
hours a day of meditation and they

474
00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:19,520
basically will kick-start your practice

475
00:20:24,010 --> 00:20:22,260
in a way that in theory will be a

476
00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:24,020
sustainable after

477
00:20:31,250 --> 00:20:27,900
the the retreat but I am

478
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:31,260
it's in terms of I'm sorry I'm like

479
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:32,760
totally going off on my like current

480
00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:34,559
special interest which is obviously

481
00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:36,600
meditation and Buddhism

482
00:20:42,169 --> 00:20:40,020
um but I I work with a pragmatic Dharma

483
00:20:43,789 --> 00:20:42,179
teacher right now so this is basically

484
00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:43,799
Buddhism without the supernatural

485
00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:45,480
elements it's just like almost like

486
00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:47,340
having a coach

487
00:20:51,289 --> 00:20:49,980
um but have I'm taking like a sweeping

488
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:51,299
tour through a lot of the different

489
00:20:56,090 --> 00:20:53,220
lineages

490
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:56,100
um before deciding if I even want to

491
00:21:02,990 --> 00:20:59,039
affiliate with one or associate with one

492
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:03,000
um I'm especially drawn to ecstatic and

493
00:21:07,330 --> 00:21:05,280
mystical branches so I'm super

494
00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:07,340
interested in like Tantra and vatriana

495
00:21:11,090 --> 00:21:09,480
which is like more of the Tibetan

496
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:11,100
tradition which has a lot of these like

497
00:21:17,090 --> 00:21:14,640
deities and art and kind of these more

498
00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:17,100
Arcane and occult in the sense of like

499
00:21:20,810 --> 00:21:19,020
hidden practices that can only be

500
00:21:22,610 --> 00:21:20,820
introduced to you by a particular

501
00:21:25,010 --> 00:21:22,620
teacher

502
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:25,020
um but until I I think I've had a more

503
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:26,940
holistic survey of these different

504
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:29,760
schools some lineages like I'm just in

505
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:31,620
the pragmatic School of just practicing

506
00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:33,600
and getting used to meditation and kind

507
00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:35,340
of learning the the nuts and bolts of

508
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:36,900
the systems

509
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:41,830
so

510
00:21:48,049 --> 00:21:44,159
it's a it's a good it's another good

511
00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:48,059
question so Kundalini Yoga as a thing is

512
00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:50,100
actually almost a proprietary kind of

513
00:21:55,970 --> 00:21:52,380
yoga that was developed

514
00:21:59,630 --> 00:21:55,980
um for practitioners it involves some

515
00:22:03,950 --> 00:21:59,640
breath work and some um like dynamic

516
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:03,960
movements instead of like holds or poses

517
00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:06,240
um but Kundalini Yoga is a categorically

518
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:08,700
distinct thing from Kundalini or like a

519
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:10,980
Kundalini Awakening people do experience

520
00:22:16,789 --> 00:22:13,380
Kundalini Awakenings after practicing

521
00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:16,799
Kundalini Yoga but Kundalini Yoga is

522
00:22:21,409 --> 00:22:19,140
almost like a um it's almost like a

523
00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:21,419
brand name for this one particular style

524
00:22:27,409 --> 00:22:23,700
of yoga that was developed whereas

525
00:22:30,649 --> 00:22:27,419
Kundalini itself is this idea

526
00:22:32,270 --> 00:22:30,659
um of almost like Chi or like trapped

527
00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:32,280
energy and then these Awakening

528
00:22:35,630 --> 00:22:34,140
experiences which typically fall under

529
00:22:40,190 --> 00:22:35,640
the umbrella of like a spiritual

530
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:40,200
emergence manifest in things like

531
00:22:46,850 --> 00:22:45,110
I would say like ecstatic states of

532
00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:46,860
bliss or Transcendence like classical

533
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:49,140
mystical experiences

534
00:22:55,010 --> 00:22:52,440
um uh a sense of cognitive enhancement a

535
00:22:57,649 --> 00:22:55,020
sense of increased energy people report

536
00:22:59,210 --> 00:22:57,659
um it's intensely physical

537
00:23:01,010 --> 00:22:59,220
um and like people report everything

538
00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:01,020
from like

539
00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:01,740
um

540
00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:03,900
feeling like they are not in control of

541
00:23:07,310 --> 00:23:05,700
their bodies and assuming Creos are

542
00:23:09,409 --> 00:23:07,320
particular positions all the way through

543
00:23:11,330 --> 00:23:09,419
like people reporting spontaneous orgasm

544
00:23:13,570 --> 00:23:11,340
and stuff like that so like Kundalini

545
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:13,580
Awakenings just become this kind of like

546
00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:16,880
waste-paced Waste Paper basket of

547
00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:19,020
experiences that people who happen to do

548
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:23,220
yoga or meditation associate with uh

549
00:23:27,409 --> 00:23:25,200
the term Kundalini

550
00:23:30,049 --> 00:23:27,419
it's interesting that there are so many

551
00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:30,059
different effects that people report

552
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:32,820
from the different practices and it

553
00:23:36,409 --> 00:23:34,799
reminds me of something that somebody I

554
00:23:38,029 --> 00:23:36,419
knew uh before they went to University

555
00:23:40,930 --> 00:23:38,039
was telling me about and then they went

556
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:40,940
to University for uh Chiropractic

557
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:43,500
and they were into sports a lot so they

558
00:23:48,830 --> 00:23:46,320
knew the functional benefits and uh when

559
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:48,840
they were going into the Chiropractic I

560
00:23:53,270 --> 00:23:50,940
was telling them oh you know you have to

561
00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:53,280
be mindful there is that underlying

562
00:23:58,010 --> 00:23:55,740
philosophy that's sort of a little bit

563
00:24:00,110 --> 00:23:58,020
not based on the scientific method

564
00:24:02,210 --> 00:24:00,120
anything yeah and they they were like

565
00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:02,220
what do you like they had no idea what I

566
00:24:06,890 --> 00:24:04,140
was talking about a little bit offended

567
00:24:08,330 --> 00:24:06,900
because they had used it so much and it

568
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:08,340
was this classic thing that we've talked

569
00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:10,080
about so many times that you can observe

570
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:13,140
an effect but to attribute that effect

571
00:24:18,830 --> 00:24:16,080
to a particular cause is not necessarily

572
00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:18,840
true right so Chiropractic it's like the

573
00:24:21,529 --> 00:24:20,100
actual philosophy says that there's

574
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:21,539
something called like inherent

575
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:23,820
intelligence flowing through our bodies

576
00:24:27,770 --> 00:24:26,159
and that the channels of the inherent

577
00:24:29,870 --> 00:24:27,780
intelligence can be misaligned and stuff

578
00:24:31,730 --> 00:24:29,880
like that that's not based in anything

579
00:24:34,430 --> 00:24:31,740
scientific but

580
00:24:35,270 --> 00:24:34,440
through practicing the actual uh you

581
00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:35,280
know

582
00:24:40,010 --> 00:24:37,500
whatever process the modality of

583
00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:40,020
chiropractic medicine you produce these

584
00:24:43,549 --> 00:24:41,580
uh functional benefits that are very

585
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:43,559
well established

586
00:24:49,549 --> 00:24:45,720
that makes me wonder if this is similar

587
00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:49,559
in in another life when I was

588
00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:52,500
um like basically a semi-pro strength

589
00:24:58,250 --> 00:24:54,720
athlete like regularly lifting

590
00:25:00,529 --> 00:24:58,260
um Computing there's of course

591
00:25:03,169 --> 00:25:00,539
um everyone who I would train with would

592
00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:03,179
also have a chiropractor and I I have

593
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:05,100
never been to one

594
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:05,760
um

595
00:25:11,330 --> 00:25:08,640
but my sense is that a very good

596
00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:11,340
chiropractor is effectively just a

597
00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:13,260
physical therapist in the sense that

598
00:25:16,190 --> 00:25:14,580
they're going to be doing very similar

599
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,200
practices that a physical therapist

600
00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:18,720
would do but particularly in America I

601
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,100
don't know what this is like in Canada

602
00:25:24,529 --> 00:25:22,320
but here if you go to chiropractor

603
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:24,539
school I think you can call yourself a

604
00:25:30,169 --> 00:25:27,600
doctor which is obviously confers a

605
00:25:32,510 --> 00:25:30,179
degree of legitimacy onto this what is

606
00:25:35,690 --> 00:25:32,520
effectively a pseudoscientific healing

607
00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:35,700
modality or alternative healing modality

608
00:25:39,289 --> 00:25:37,200
whatever I don't like

609
00:25:40,970 --> 00:25:39,299
I know I understand that it works for

610
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:40,980
people so I'm definitely not denigrating

611
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:42,240
that

612
00:25:46,370 --> 00:25:43,140
um

613
00:25:48,169 --> 00:25:46,380
but also Insurance our private health

614
00:25:50,750 --> 00:25:48,179
insurance most insurance policies will

615
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:50,760
cover chiropractic treatment

616
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:53,279
um which between those two things I

617
00:25:57,470 --> 00:25:54,480
think

618
00:26:00,169 --> 00:25:57,480
um creates a legitimacy that at the root

619
00:26:02,570 --> 00:26:00,179
of this discipline or practice I

620
00:26:05,149 --> 00:26:02,580
candidly don't think exists but like the

621
00:26:07,010 --> 00:26:05,159
original like Orthodoxy of Chiropractic

622
00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:07,020
work is basically like you can crack

623
00:26:11,330 --> 00:26:08,880
your back and cure your allergies and

624
00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:11,340
stuff and yes it's um

625
00:26:15,409 --> 00:26:13,080
I think the way it's conventionally

626
00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:15,419
practiced now is a far cry from that but

627
00:26:20,570 --> 00:26:18,120
it still is not scientifically grounded

628
00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:20,580
in any meaningful sense I think that was

629
00:26:24,110 --> 00:26:21,960
a great point you just made about

630
00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:24,120
insurance and Licensing I actually

631
00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:26,460
worked in uh this Ontario provincially I

632
00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:28,980
worked at a healthcare licensing

633
00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:32,100
provincial regulator and it is exactly

634
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:33,900
what you're talking about there are

635
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:36,480
issues where for example uh health

636
00:26:42,769 --> 00:26:37,520
insurance

637
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:42,779
will be uh provided through forced

638
00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:45,360
registration to certain Health Care

639
00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:48,000
practitioners so if you practice

640
00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:50,220
you know anything involving manipulation

641
00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:52,140
of the soft tissue yada yada then you

642
00:26:55,730 --> 00:26:53,940
have to register as a massage therapist

643
00:26:58,430 --> 00:26:55,740
but then you also have someone who's

644
00:27:00,350 --> 00:26:58,440
practicing something like Reiki doing

645
00:27:03,529 --> 00:27:00,360
those activities and they register as a

646
00:27:06,529 --> 00:27:03,539
massage therapist so the purpose of

647
00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:06,539
getting people to be licensed is not to

648
00:27:11,090 --> 00:27:07,799
give them

649
00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:11,100
um you know a sense of uh their thing

650
00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:13,320
they're doing being true it is to

651
00:27:18,769 --> 00:27:16,500
protect the public from potential harm

652
00:27:19,970 --> 00:27:18,779
so licensing is actually the reverse of

653
00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:19,980
how people usually think about it people

654
00:27:24,769 --> 00:27:22,980
are forced to be licensed in order to be

655
00:27:26,810 --> 00:27:24,779
insured to protect other people against

656
00:27:28,190 --> 00:27:26,820
possible harm they might cause it has

657
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:28,200
nothing to do with like the legitimacy

658
00:27:33,529 --> 00:27:30,960
of the underlying act so that's sort of

659
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:33,539
the sense I was trying to get at there

660
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:37,200
um anyway uh I'd love to Pivot and maybe

661
00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:40,559
dive into our primary subject if uh yes

662
00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:42,240
it's okay with that I'm really excited

663
00:27:48,169 --> 00:27:45,000
for it yeah yeah let's do it

664
00:27:50,990 --> 00:27:48,179
um so Lewis sure

665
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:51,000
folder yes share your share your folder

666
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:53,039
and I was just gonna say that this is

667
00:27:56,330 --> 00:27:55,200
you know you just finished that book by

668
00:27:57,769 --> 00:27:56,340
Nick Lane

669
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:57,779
um actually he read both of his books

670
00:28:01,250 --> 00:27:59,039
didn't you

671
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,260
um latest uh books he's got other books

672
00:28:05,690 --> 00:28:03,120
I haven't gone into yet but I can talk

673
00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:05,700
some a little bit about those

674
00:28:14,049 --> 00:28:09,960
um those ones and um some other things

675
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:17,570
little screen

676
00:28:22,909 --> 00:28:19,679
thank you

677
00:28:24,169 --> 00:28:22,919
also a big shout out to my parents who I

678
00:28:26,750 --> 00:28:24,179
think are tuning in for the first time

679
00:28:28,730 --> 00:28:26,760
tonight so I'll keep the Psychedelic

680
00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:28,740
chat too a minimum and just talk about

681
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:31,500
the wholesome subject of evolutionary

682
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:38,090
figure out a way to shoehorn it in here

683
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:40,080
somehow

684
00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:42,480
like every week we've managed is that

685
00:28:45,409 --> 00:28:43,919
sharing now

686
00:28:46,730 --> 00:28:45,419
um no so I'm gonna get you added to this

687
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:46,740
room I'm going to get it added to the

688
00:28:49,970 --> 00:28:48,480
stream but what

689
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:49,980
do you want to open up what you're going

690
00:28:54,890 --> 00:28:52,740
to share first oh yeah there we go you

691
00:28:57,649 --> 00:28:54,900
see that beautiful yeah let me get this

692
00:28:59,870 --> 00:28:57,659
out of here so I did initially have

693
00:29:02,029 --> 00:28:59,880
slides that I wanted to show but I think

694
00:29:03,769 --> 00:29:02,039
um the subject is just so Broad and

695
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,779
complex that um

696
00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:05,760
well mirroring the actual subject itself

697
00:29:09,769 --> 00:29:07,320
that um

698
00:29:11,570 --> 00:29:09,779
I just uh didn't find it very economical

699
00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:11,580
I'll just have some

700
00:29:15,710 --> 00:29:13,620
notes next to me that I'll read and then

701
00:29:17,390 --> 00:29:15,720
just show some pictures to kind of guide

702
00:29:19,070 --> 00:29:17,400
the discussion and you guys can just

703
00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:19,080
jump in

704
00:29:23,630 --> 00:29:20,640
Okay so

705
00:29:26,930 --> 00:29:23,640
you see any any uh comments by the way

706
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:26,940
guys you could just tell me now that the

707
00:29:32,149 --> 00:29:28,799
viewers are making

708
00:29:35,870 --> 00:29:32,159
um so this is going to be about a

709
00:29:39,649 --> 00:29:35,880
complexity of evolution in biological in

710
00:29:41,149 --> 00:29:39,659
the biosphere so complex organisms

711
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:41,159
um and some of the implications for

712
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:42,720
extraterrestrials

713
00:29:47,210 --> 00:29:44,159
I was going to talk a little bit about

714
00:29:49,789 --> 00:29:47,220
human intelligence and cognition

715
00:29:50,930 --> 00:29:49,799
and maybe also a bit about the Fermi

716
00:29:52,549 --> 00:29:50,940
paradox

717
00:29:54,010 --> 00:29:52,559
great so

718
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:54,020
um life

719
00:30:00,289 --> 00:29:57,840
uh you know it's possibly widespread in

720
00:30:01,970 --> 00:30:00,299
the universe and you often hear the the

721
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:01,980
claim that you know it's so the universe

722
00:30:05,570 --> 00:30:03,840
is so big that there has to be life out

723
00:30:08,450 --> 00:30:05,580
there although that's not necessarily

724
00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:08,460
true but let's say that there is life

725
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:10,500
out there and it's common it does not

726
00:30:14,930 --> 00:30:12,960
mean that it's complex life in the sense

727
00:30:19,250 --> 00:30:14,940
of multicellular

728
00:30:21,769 --> 00:30:19,260
um life it's got you know varied tissues

729
00:30:24,350 --> 00:30:21,779
and organ systems or complex nervous

730
00:30:26,090 --> 00:30:24,360
systems and things like that it could be

731
00:30:27,470 --> 00:30:26,100
the case that most life in the universe

732
00:30:28,549 --> 00:30:27,480
is simply

733
00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:28,559
foreign

734
00:30:35,210 --> 00:30:32,640
like prokaryotic life on Earth so that

735
00:30:37,090 --> 00:30:35,220
is like bacteria and archaea those are

736
00:30:39,470 --> 00:30:37,100
multicellular sorry unicellular

737
00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:39,480
organisms that live on earth they're the

738
00:30:45,769 --> 00:30:42,360
oldest types of life and uh we are

739
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:45,779
eukaryotes so animals plants protests

740
00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:47,039
fungi

741
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:48,360
are

742
00:30:54,110 --> 00:30:51,360
uh eukaryotes okay

743
00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:54,120
so eukaryotes have got complex

744
00:30:59,090 --> 00:30:55,980
let me just show you this

745
00:31:03,169 --> 00:31:01,310
um we should put the links to the images

746
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:03,179
by the way but I got these mostly from

747
00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:06,360
Wikipedia and I apologize for the dark

748
00:31:12,110 --> 00:31:08,580
background here because it's

749
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,120
uh oh it's a transparent image right

750
00:31:16,430 --> 00:31:14,159
yeah but I'll just read you what is

751
00:31:18,590 --> 00:31:16,440
shown in here so this is the interior of

752
00:31:21,289 --> 00:31:18,600
a eukaryotic cell as we would find in

753
00:31:23,149 --> 00:31:21,299
our own bodies although we've got uh

754
00:31:25,850 --> 00:31:23,159
prokaryotes as well which help us do

755
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:25,860
things like digest certain things which

756
00:31:31,370 --> 00:31:28,559
we can't do by ourselves so gut bacteria

757
00:31:33,289 --> 00:31:31,380
are still very important but eukaryotic

758
00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:33,299
cells have got these complex internal

759
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:34,740
organelles

760
00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:38,399
which are uh enclosed by membranes so

761
00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:41,580
you see here the nucleus that's got

762
00:31:46,909 --> 00:31:44,700
um the most of the DNA in the cell which

763
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:46,919
is locked in here

764
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:49,200
um in the form of linear DNA so linear

765
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,559
chromosomes whereas bacteria have got

766
00:31:56,750 --> 00:31:54,080
um circular

767
00:31:59,510 --> 00:31:56,760
chromosomes okay

768
00:32:00,529 --> 00:31:59,520
so this nucleus has got pores through

769
00:32:01,310 --> 00:32:00,539
which

770
00:32:03,889 --> 00:32:01,320
um

771
00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:03,899
messenger RNA passes out into the

772
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,020
cytoplasm and the messenger RNA is

773
00:32:12,889 --> 00:32:09,600
basically a transcribed copy of the DNA

774
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:12,899
and it's going to be used to translate

775
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:14,159
um it's going to be translated into

776
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,880
protein so proteins are

777
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:18,960
macromolecules which we use for

778
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:20,340
thousands of different things in our

779
00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:22,320
bodies and then you've got these other

780
00:32:27,169 --> 00:32:24,720
organelles like the rough endoplasmic

781
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:27,179
reticulum the smooth endoplasmic

782
00:32:32,269 --> 00:32:28,559
reticulum

783
00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:32,279
the Golgi apparatus lysosomes

784
00:32:37,310 --> 00:32:35,220
um various vesicles and so these are

785
00:32:39,409 --> 00:32:37,320
like for processing proteins further or

786
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:39,419
packaging materials sending them to

787
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:41,760
different parts of the cell or breaking

788
00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:44,159
uh breaking apart certain molecules or

789
00:32:49,549 --> 00:32:46,760
toxins and stuff like that

790
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:49,559
yeah yeah so they possess it sounds like

791
00:32:53,330 --> 00:32:51,840
basically a metabolic function are they

792
00:32:55,549 --> 00:32:53,340
preferred yeah well they're extremely

793
00:32:58,130 --> 00:32:55,559
important for a whole range of metabolic

794
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:58,140
functions metabolism is just a whole

795
00:33:02,450 --> 00:33:00,480
range of chemical reactions taking place

796
00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:02,460
in our bodies

797
00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:05,520
um and the important thing here is that

798
00:33:10,430 --> 00:33:07,860
these organelles are not present in

799
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:10,440
bacteria or archaea they are very

800
00:33:14,210 --> 00:33:12,240
structurally

801
00:33:16,250 --> 00:33:14,220
um simple compared to us although of

802
00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:16,260
course they're very complex in their own

803
00:33:21,009 --> 00:33:18,840
right but compared to us they're very

804
00:33:24,529 --> 00:33:21,019
simple now

805
00:33:27,529 --> 00:33:24,539
you were uh did you say that bacteria

806
00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:27,539
the chromosomes are actually circular

807
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:31,019
whereas uh like hours are linear like

808
00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:33,240
the helical structure right

809
00:33:38,090 --> 00:33:36,120
distinct

810
00:33:40,669 --> 00:33:38,100
um yeah well it's helical in the sense

811
00:33:43,549 --> 00:33:40,679
that it's got the twisty ladder of DNA

812
00:33:45,049 --> 00:33:43,559
but yes you know it's just by linear I

813
00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:45,059
just mean it's got an end and a start

814
00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:47,460
and if you can you can in in principle

815
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:49,860
just stretch it out into a long string

816
00:33:54,649 --> 00:33:53,279
now why why would it be circular in

817
00:33:57,889 --> 00:33:54,659
bacteria I've never heard of that that's

818
00:34:00,350 --> 00:33:57,899
really intriguing uh it could just be

819
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,269
something that got frozen in evolution

820
00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:04,320
I'm not not actually sure why they do it

821
00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:08,220
differently to us okay yeah they they um

822
00:34:12,250 --> 00:34:10,080
they do actually engage in something

823
00:34:16,909 --> 00:34:12,260
called horizontal Gene transfer very

824
00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:17,530
um

825
00:34:22,369 --> 00:34:20,040
they basically copy out like little

826
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:22,379
pieces of their DNA and swap with each

827
00:34:27,409 --> 00:34:25,440
other and they can use that to acquire

828
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:27,419
you know resistance to drugs or to

829
00:34:32,329 --> 00:34:30,480
environmental changes very quickly

830
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:32,339
um but we also engage in limited

831
00:34:35,869 --> 00:34:34,679
horizontal Gene transfer especially with

832
00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:35,879
viruses

833
00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:38,460
which can reverse transcribe into our

834
00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:40,740
genomes but yeah I'm not sure exactly

835
00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:43,080
why we have linear and they've got

836
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:46,080
circular okay yeah

837
00:34:51,950 --> 00:34:49,200
um so when when I mention when I talk

838
00:34:54,409 --> 00:34:51,960
about complex life I really am referring

839
00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:54,419
to something which has got these sorts

840
00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:56,580
of complex organelles

841
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:58,560
um and also mitochondria I'll get onto

842
00:35:02,570 --> 00:35:00,240
mitochondria in a second because that's

843
00:35:04,790 --> 00:35:02,580
really key sure

844
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:04,800
um linear chromosomes

845
00:35:09,890 --> 00:35:07,680
um which have got homologous they've got

846
00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:09,900
homologous pairs so we've got 23 pairs

847
00:35:13,069 --> 00:35:11,820
of chromosomes

848
00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:13,079
um but other organisms have got

849
00:35:16,430 --> 00:35:14,940
different amounts

850
00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:16,440
different animals have got different

851
00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:18,060
numbers of chromosomes for example

852
00:35:23,450 --> 00:35:20,760
plants as well

853
00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:23,460
um multicellularity so many eukaryotes

854
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:25,500
are multicellular that means that their

855
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:27,119
bodies are composed of

856
00:35:32,690 --> 00:35:30,720
uh many cells often trillions so we've

857
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:32,700
got trillions of eukaryotic cells in our

858
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:34,800
bodies and they are organized into

859
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:37,020
tissues and organ systems which have got

860
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:39,660
specialized functions you know muscles

861
00:35:45,650 --> 00:35:42,480
nervous tissue Etc

862
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:45,660
and so we don't find prokaryotic animals

863
00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:49,200
and why is that I think it has to do

864
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:51,660
with energy so that is Nick Lanes

865
00:35:56,510 --> 00:35:55,440
um idea Nick Lane is the author of this

866
00:35:58,849 --> 00:35:56,520
book

867
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,859
the vital question which everyone should

868
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:00,480
read

869
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:02,940
um energy Evolution and the origins of

870
00:36:08,750 --> 00:36:06,240
complex life and he's also written this

871
00:36:09,950 --> 00:36:08,760
other book recently it just came out

872
00:36:11,930 --> 00:36:09,960
this year

873
00:36:14,990 --> 00:36:11,940
oh this is Transformer or something

874
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:15,000
right I thought I had it here but um it

875
00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:22,310
the Deep chemistry of life and death in

876
00:36:25,849 --> 00:36:23,700
this one he talks about the What's

877
00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:25,859
called the Krebs cycle or the citric

878
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:27,839
acid cycle this is an important

879
00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:31,260
metabolic circuit in the cell and it's

880
00:36:35,150 --> 00:36:33,599
involved in um producing adenosine

881
00:36:37,310 --> 00:36:35,160
triphosphate which is the energy

882
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:37,320
currency of the cell although there's

883
00:36:42,109 --> 00:36:39,119
another step after this which is more

884
00:36:44,329 --> 00:36:42,119
more important but um

885
00:36:46,730 --> 00:36:44,339
the way that this is often taught the

886
00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:46,740
Krebs cycle is often taught in

887
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:49,740
introductory courses is um to just sort

888
00:36:53,810 --> 00:36:51,599
of brush over it and say that it's a

889
00:36:55,250 --> 00:36:53,820
step on the way to the electron

890
00:36:57,890 --> 00:36:55,260
transport chain

891
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:57,900
but it's actually much more interesting

892
00:37:02,150 --> 00:37:01,200
and complex than that so the Krebs cycle

893
00:37:05,569 --> 00:37:02,160
um

894
00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:05,579
I'm having I'm having metabolism yeah

895
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:09,060
I'm having flashbacks to my freshman

896
00:37:13,069 --> 00:37:11,400
year of high school taking biology I

897
00:37:14,810 --> 00:37:13,079
remember all of these terms I can't

898
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,820
believe you haven't called mitochondria

899
00:37:20,510 --> 00:37:17,520
the PowerHouse of the cell yet oh I was

900
00:37:22,970 --> 00:37:20,520
gonna do that all right so sorry sorry

901
00:37:25,069 --> 00:37:22,980
to spoil it I can't wait I'm waiting

902
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:25,079
with baited breath Lewis

903
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:27,359
so the trans this book talks about

904
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:30,060
cancer and how um the Krebs cycle can

905
00:37:34,910 --> 00:37:31,680
actually run in Reverse in certain

906
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:34,920
conditions like in cancer cells

907
00:37:39,170 --> 00:37:37,440
um certain circuits within the Krebs

908
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:39,180
cycle can actually go in reverse to the

909
00:37:44,690 --> 00:37:41,280
normal Direction although ironically

910
00:37:47,390 --> 00:37:44,700
what we think of the as the Krebs cycle

911
00:37:49,849 --> 00:37:47,400
um it's actually is itself the reverse

912
00:37:52,670 --> 00:37:49,859
of what initially evolved so like deep

913
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:52,680
in the past when life was first arising

914
00:37:58,010 --> 00:37:55,920
probably in hydrothermal vents

915
00:37:59,450 --> 00:37:58,020
um the Krebs cycle or something like it

916
00:38:01,490 --> 00:37:59,460
was actually going in the opposite

917
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:01,500
direction to what we usually associate

918
00:38:05,450 --> 00:38:03,599
with a Krebs cycle so he goes into all

919
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:05,460
that sort of stuff in his book

920
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:08,220
very very complex book I think it does

921
00:38:13,490 --> 00:38:10,800
as well as any anybody can to sort of

922
00:38:15,230 --> 00:38:13,500
make it accessible to a popular audience

923
00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:15,240
although you know you'll definitely

924
00:38:21,170 --> 00:38:18,000
struggle in Parts with this book

925
00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:21,180
and the other one a vital question

926
00:38:26,030 --> 00:38:23,460
yeah what is uh Nick Lane's uh

927
00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:26,040
background uh who is this guy he's a

928
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:28,920
British biochemist and bioenergeticist

929
00:38:33,530 --> 00:38:31,440
so he studies on how thermodynamics

930
00:38:36,770 --> 00:38:33,540
plays into the question of what is life

931
00:38:37,870 --> 00:38:36,780
excellent and um he's got different

932
00:38:40,370 --> 00:38:37,880
um

933
00:38:41,870 --> 00:38:40,380
uh experiments going on in his lab

934
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,880
different people look at different

935
00:38:46,190 --> 00:38:43,680
things including the origins of the

936
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:46,200
genetic code and also metabolism which

937
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:48,480
is very interested in he actually thinks

938
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:50,880
that metabolism became before the

939
00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:52,320
genetic code

940
00:38:58,430 --> 00:38:53,460
so

941
00:39:00,470 --> 00:38:58,440
this is I've heard um and I'm really at

942
00:39:02,810 --> 00:39:00,480
the edge of my experience and knowledge

943
00:39:05,089 --> 00:39:02,820
here talking about this but I heard an

944
00:39:08,270 --> 00:39:05,099
interview with Bobby azarian who was

945
00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:08,280
talking very similarly about the role of

946
00:39:12,410 --> 00:39:10,740
energetic systems and evolution and the

947
00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:12,420
creation of life and then I also think

948
00:39:17,150 --> 00:39:15,060
this is something David Deutsch talks

949
00:39:20,810 --> 00:39:17,160
about as well

950
00:39:22,970 --> 00:39:20,820
yeah um super fascinating and compelling

951
00:39:26,210 --> 00:39:22,980
and I think it's becoming increasingly

952
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:26,220
well appreciated because up until now

953
00:39:30,530 --> 00:39:27,920
um people have thought more in terms of

954
00:39:33,530 --> 00:39:30,540
self-replicating molecules you know the

955
00:39:35,630 --> 00:39:33,540
genetic uh information and how that

956
00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,640
evolved and they see that as like the

957
00:39:40,250 --> 00:39:37,680
the key to life but in fact it could

958
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:40,260
have been metabolism which was the key

959
00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:43,440
and um genetics came afterwards not that

960
00:39:48,290 --> 00:39:45,780
genetics is unimportant but um in terms

961
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:48,300
of the chronology of how life got

962
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:50,460
started on Earth it could well have been

963
00:39:55,790 --> 00:39:52,320
that metabolic systems were the first

964
00:39:58,370 --> 00:39:55,800
ones and what is uh metabolism just in a

965
00:40:00,349 --> 00:39:58,380
very basic way metabolism is a whole

966
00:40:03,230 --> 00:40:00,359
series of chemical reactions taking

967
00:40:05,930 --> 00:40:03,240
place in an organism to produce

968
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:05,940
um carbon carbon-based molecules so

969
00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:08,880
so-called organic molecules and it

970
00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:11,400
involves combining molecules to make

971
00:40:14,930 --> 00:40:13,680
larger ones or breaking them down to

972
00:40:17,329 --> 00:40:14,940
extract energy

973
00:40:19,430 --> 00:40:17,339
and there's also energy metabolism which

974
00:40:22,730 --> 00:40:19,440
is the production of adenosine

975
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:22,740
triphosphate or ATP which is the energy

976
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:25,440
currency of the cell so some of that

977
00:40:28,490 --> 00:40:27,119
energy currency is produced by

978
00:40:31,370 --> 00:40:28,500
glycolysis

979
00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:31,380
uh some is produced by the Krebs cycle

980
00:40:35,390 --> 00:40:33,540
which I just mentioned

981
00:40:39,050 --> 00:40:35,400
I think I have a

982
00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:39,060
I thought oh here is a Krebs cycle sorry

983
00:40:44,930 --> 00:40:41,280
again apologies for the dark background

984
00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:44,940
but this is a very complex series of um

985
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:47,220
events uh you know different molecules

986
00:40:51,230 --> 00:40:49,200
are being used as intermediates and then

987
00:40:53,690 --> 00:40:51,240
you get products you do get some

988
00:40:55,790 --> 00:40:53,700
adenosine triphosphate from this

989
00:40:57,890 --> 00:40:55,800
but then I'm going to show you another

990
00:41:00,950 --> 00:40:57,900
step called the electron transport chain

991
00:41:01,849 --> 00:41:00,960
which is producing most of the ATP in

992
00:41:05,569 --> 00:41:01,859
the cell

993
00:41:10,490 --> 00:41:05,579
in the um eukaryotic cell because

994
00:41:13,310 --> 00:41:10,500
um bacteria do not have uh mitochondria

995
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:13,320
so you get this sort of circle this why

996
00:41:18,170 --> 00:41:14,880
it's called the cycle is because you

997
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:18,180
start with acetyl coenzyme a and then

998
00:41:22,670 --> 00:41:20,400
that's going to react with oxaloacetate

999
00:41:25,130 --> 00:41:22,680
to produce citrate and then you're going

1000
00:41:28,010 --> 00:41:25,140
to get some water and other byproducts

1001
00:41:29,510 --> 00:41:28,020
along the way things being combined

1002
00:41:31,609 --> 00:41:29,520
um and

1003
00:41:33,530 --> 00:41:31,619
there's also like other circuits within

1004
00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:33,540
this which are involved in biosynthesis

1005
00:41:38,990 --> 00:41:37,020
of um important biochemicals but

1006
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,000
ultimately the way that this is taught a

1007
00:41:44,170 --> 00:41:41,520
lot of the time is just to focus on the

1008
00:41:47,329 --> 00:41:44,180
the role of this plays in ATP production

1009
00:41:49,310 --> 00:41:47,339
and it sort of ignores how other

1010
00:41:51,290 --> 00:41:49,320
molecules are being made

1011
00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:51,300
and um there's a sort of a tension at

1012
00:41:56,690 --> 00:41:54,060
the heart of the Krebs cycle because you

1013
00:41:59,390 --> 00:41:56,700
can shunt off some of these products for

1014
00:42:01,630 --> 00:41:59,400
biosynthesis but then that eats into the

1015
00:42:04,490 --> 00:42:01,640
ATP production or you can

1016
00:42:05,930 --> 00:42:04,500
prioritize ATP at the expense of

1017
00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:05,940
biosynthesis

1018
00:42:10,910 --> 00:42:09,180
and some of these um circuits this is

1019
00:42:12,410 --> 00:42:10,920
very simplified but there are it's sort

1020
00:42:14,329 --> 00:42:12,420
of like a roundabout you know like when

1021
00:42:15,770 --> 00:42:14,339
you're driving in a city you get it you

1022
00:42:17,690 --> 00:42:15,780
get to a roundabout and there's like

1023
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:17,700
different Lanes within that

1024
00:42:20,450 --> 00:42:18,720
um

1025
00:42:22,910 --> 00:42:20,460
some of those circuits can actually run

1026
00:42:25,370 --> 00:42:22,920
in Reverse under certain conditions

1027
00:42:27,050 --> 00:42:25,380
and uh we see that in different kinds of

1028
00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:27,060
bacteria and also in cancer

1029
00:42:31,849 --> 00:42:30,180
interestingly oh interesting yep yeah

1030
00:42:34,849 --> 00:42:31,859
that's something that Nick Lane devotes

1031
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:34,859
many chapters to in his book so this

1032
00:42:38,990 --> 00:42:36,480
this like

1033
00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:39,000
um metabolic cycle or process it's

1034
00:42:42,589 --> 00:42:41,160
pretty con it's consistent life form to

1035
00:42:45,710 --> 00:42:42,599
life form

1036
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:45,720
um yeah it's pretty standard

1037
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:49,920
mm-hmm yeah it's highly conserved but

1038
00:42:52,310 --> 00:42:51,359
there are some little differences here

1039
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:52,320
and there

1040
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:54,240
right and

1041
00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:55,200
um

1042
00:42:59,150 --> 00:42:57,180
I want to go back to something you

1043
00:43:01,010 --> 00:42:59,160
mentioned earlier which is the

1044
00:43:06,349 --> 00:43:01,020
geothermal vents I know this is a little

1045
00:43:11,089 --> 00:43:09,349
this is a alkaline behold

1046
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:11,099
yeah I was hoping you could talk a

1047
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:14,400
little bit about that and where it where

1048
00:43:20,270 --> 00:43:16,200
and how it factors into this whole

1049
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:20,280
conversation of Life emergence yeah so

1050
00:43:25,370 --> 00:43:23,040
this this structure here is a

1051
00:43:28,010 --> 00:43:25,380
hydrothermal vent it's a specific type

1052
00:43:30,109 --> 00:43:28,020
of hydrothermal vent it's an alkaline

1053
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:30,119
vent there's also the black smokers

1054
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,500
which have gotten a bit more press

1055
00:43:35,150 --> 00:43:33,839
because they're more dramatic

1056
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:35,160
um and they're also probably important

1057
00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:37,260
to an extent in the origin of Life

1058
00:43:41,569 --> 00:43:39,660
question but Nick Lane thinks that these

1059
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:41,579
are really these ones are really the

1060
00:43:46,849 --> 00:43:44,640
important ones is that a crystallization

1061
00:43:50,450 --> 00:43:46,859
process occurring there Louise

1062
00:43:52,010 --> 00:43:50,460
it's a serpentinization process uh I

1063
00:43:54,349 --> 00:43:52,020
think it's similar to crystallization

1064
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:54,359
you get these minerals kind of building

1065
00:43:59,150 --> 00:43:56,720
on each other and you get these

1066
00:44:01,010 --> 00:43:59,160
microporous structures which are really

1067
00:44:03,410 --> 00:44:01,020
key now

1068
00:44:05,089 --> 00:44:03,420
um so you can see these things are huge

1069
00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:05,099
um this is called uh

1070
00:44:11,329 --> 00:44:07,280
Crystal City or something

1071
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:11,339
they gave the nickname I think in the

1072
00:44:14,690 --> 00:44:13,440
the Atlantic Ocean but you find them

1073
00:44:16,250 --> 00:44:14,700
deep in the sea

1074
00:44:19,550 --> 00:44:16,260
cool um

1075
00:44:23,089 --> 00:44:19,560
so the reason that these are important

1076
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:25,849
you get these microporous structures

1077
00:44:36,109 --> 00:44:28,400
which um are acting is basically

1078
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:37,069
oh

1079
00:44:40,849 --> 00:44:38,940
it's kind of I guess it's sort of

1080
00:44:41,930 --> 00:44:40,859
similar to Coral in a way but the

1081
00:44:44,990 --> 00:44:41,940
important thing is you get these little

1082
00:44:48,650 --> 00:44:45,000
cavities which separate

1083
00:44:51,470 --> 00:44:48,660
um the alkaline fluid in the vents from

1084
00:44:52,970 --> 00:44:51,480
the surrounding sea water which is more

1085
00:44:55,069 --> 00:44:52,980
acidic

1086
00:44:56,930 --> 00:44:55,079
because you know water absorbs carbon

1087
00:44:59,329 --> 00:44:56,940
dioxide from the atmosphere

1088
00:45:03,050 --> 00:44:59,339
and so there's a differential

1089
00:45:05,630 --> 00:45:03,060
um in between the the outside and the

1090
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:05,640
inside of these little pores and that

1091
00:45:09,410 --> 00:45:07,920
facilitates proton Extrusion and

1092
00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:09,420
electron flow

1093
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:12,060
okay which is something that we find in

1094
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:14,520
ourselves and that's you know this

1095
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:18,000
process uh provides energy for

1096
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:20,640
um biosynthesis and we do find in his

1097
00:45:25,309 --> 00:45:22,800
experiments in his lab that you can get

1098
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:25,319
certain um biochemicals

1099
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:27,599
um organic molecules forming

1100
00:45:34,430 --> 00:45:30,960
by having like laminar flow across these

1101
00:45:36,170 --> 00:45:34,440
um pores and having a pH difference as

1102
00:45:39,230 --> 00:45:36,180
well you can get the build up of a

1103
00:45:42,230 --> 00:45:39,240
surprising number of Bio bio molecules

1104
00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:42,240
which are also the intermediates of the

1105
00:45:48,109 --> 00:45:44,880
Krebs cycle so you can get very

1106
00:45:50,510 --> 00:45:48,119
rudimentary um Krebs cycle Style

1107
00:45:52,609 --> 00:45:50,520
processes going on and that's without

1108
00:45:54,050 --> 00:45:52,619
genetics that's the important thing as

1109
00:45:56,690 --> 00:45:54,060
well but you don't need a genetic code

1110
00:45:57,470 --> 00:45:56,700
to get this process going

1111
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:57,480
um

1112
00:46:01,910 --> 00:46:00,000
I I brought up Brook's comment here that

1113
00:46:04,069 --> 00:46:01,920
there's a snail with an iron shell that

1114
00:46:07,370 --> 00:46:04,079
lives in volcanoes nature is wild

1115
00:46:08,809 --> 00:46:07,380
creative and anti-entropic

1116
00:46:10,970 --> 00:46:08,819
um which

1117
00:46:14,030 --> 00:46:10,980
when we talk about this or listening to

1118
00:46:17,329 --> 00:46:14,040
talk about this what is so fascinating

1119
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:17,339
to me is that these we're you're

1120
00:46:23,150 --> 00:46:19,920
describing an environment that

1121
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:23,160
in any sense that we understand is

1122
00:46:28,609 --> 00:46:26,400
extremely hostile to life it's yeah deep

1123
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:28,619
underwater it's

1124
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:31,560
there's no light there's no Oxygen it's

1125
00:46:37,609 --> 00:46:35,220
highly basic or alkaline

1126
00:46:39,410 --> 00:46:37,619
um but we still get these extremely

1127
00:46:42,410 --> 00:46:39,420
strange creatures that live down at

1128
00:46:44,329 --> 00:46:42,420
those depths and then also as you're

1129
00:46:46,730 --> 00:46:44,339
talking about this is you know where

1130
00:46:48,589 --> 00:46:46,740
people theorize that life began

1131
00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:48,599
yeah um and I just think that

1132
00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:51,420
juxtaposition is so fascinating uh

1133
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:53,520
between these kind of weird deep sea

1134
00:46:58,670 --> 00:46:55,140
creatures that you find down there and

1135
00:46:59,690 --> 00:46:58,680
then also this notion that it is

1136
00:47:02,690 --> 00:46:59,700
um

1137
00:47:05,390 --> 00:47:02,700
primordial like yes what may have

1138
00:47:07,790 --> 00:47:05,400
started at all and that's also a good

1139
00:47:09,470 --> 00:47:07,800
point in terms of thinking about

1140
00:47:11,870 --> 00:47:09,480
um xenobiology

1141
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,880
which is specifically alien life

1142
00:47:15,470 --> 00:47:13,440
um

1143
00:47:16,609 --> 00:47:15,480
in terms of like what are the conditions

1144
00:47:19,069 --> 00:47:16,619
in the universe where you could

1145
00:47:20,930 --> 00:47:19,079
potentially find life we're finding life

1146
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:20,940
you know existing in environments that

1147
00:47:25,970 --> 00:47:23,520
we had previously thought uninhabitable

1148
00:47:27,410 --> 00:47:25,980
and that could you know increase the

1149
00:47:30,770 --> 00:47:27,420
range of environments Across the

1150
00:47:33,069 --> 00:47:30,780
Universe where we could look for life

1151
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:33,079
so we have a question here from figure

1152
00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:35,880
Louis does science contemplate other

1153
00:47:42,069 --> 00:47:39,240
possible life forms we haven't seen yet

1154
00:47:44,750 --> 00:47:42,079
so for example is it possible to have

1155
00:47:47,210 --> 00:47:44,760
non-carbon-based life forms if so what

1156
00:47:49,309 --> 00:47:47,220
would they be made of as an alternative

1157
00:47:51,890 --> 00:47:49,319
an alternative to carbon is silicon

1158
00:47:54,109 --> 00:47:51,900
which has got similar

1159
00:47:56,390 --> 00:47:54,119
behaves somewhat similarly to carbon

1160
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,400
although it's not as versatile

1161
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:58,800
so that's one

1162
00:48:04,190 --> 00:48:01,920
um but a Campbell I think he talked last

1163
00:48:05,870 --> 00:48:04,200
time about some research which is being

1164
00:48:08,569 --> 00:48:05,880
done with plasma where you could get

1165
00:48:12,230 --> 00:48:08,579
yeah self-replicating patterns or

1166
00:48:15,770 --> 00:48:12,240
structures in plasma yeah uh sideovich

1167
00:48:18,829 --> 00:48:15,780
doctor uh I think uh the side of it

1168
00:48:21,170 --> 00:48:18,839
she's from the uh physics lab in Saint

1169
00:48:23,089 --> 00:48:21,180
Petersburg Russia National Academy of

1170
00:48:25,809 --> 00:48:23,099
Sciences there he has a published paper

1171
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:25,819
in 2007

1172
00:48:32,569 --> 00:48:29,220
new uh physics journal I think it was uh

1173
00:48:36,829 --> 00:48:32,579
and it describes experiments in the lab

1174
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:36,839
and he talks about how plasma structures

1175
00:48:41,569 --> 00:48:39,680
the fourth state of matter ionized

1176
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:41,579
aerosols and things like that that's

1177
00:48:49,069 --> 00:48:45,119
structured plasmas uh fulfill all of the

1178
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:49,079
basic definitional criteria for living

1179
00:48:54,770 --> 00:48:52,200
things now it specifies that doesn't

1180
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:54,780
mean that the plasma structures are

1181
00:48:58,490 --> 00:48:57,359
alive what it means is that the

1182
00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:58,500
definition

1183
00:49:02,930 --> 00:49:00,720
is met and therefore maybe we should

1184
00:49:04,670 --> 00:49:02,940
change the definition or you know maybe

1185
00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:04,680
we should look at what it means to be

1186
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:07,020
alive but uh yeah that there are

1187
00:49:11,329 --> 00:49:08,640
published physics papers that indicate

1188
00:49:15,829 --> 00:49:11,339
that uh plasma structures can uh fulfill

1189
00:49:20,809 --> 00:49:17,690
yeah those are the two ones I can think

1190
00:49:22,670 --> 00:49:20,819
of silicon based life and something like

1191
00:49:24,290 --> 00:49:22,680
what you're talking about Campbell I

1192
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:24,300
think there are some other ones

1193
00:49:28,250 --> 00:49:25,680
um

1194
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:28,260
I mean it's probably related also to the

1195
00:49:31,849 --> 00:49:30,000
question of how life got started because

1196
00:49:34,550 --> 00:49:31,859
there's different hypotheses including

1197
00:49:36,170 --> 00:49:34,560
the RNA World hypothesis

1198
00:49:38,750 --> 00:49:36,180
um potentially like there's life out

1199
00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:38,760
there which uses RNA instead of DNA as

1200
00:49:42,829 --> 00:49:41,940
its main genetic substrate

1201
00:49:46,010 --> 00:49:42,839
um

1202
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:46,020
there could also be life which

1203
00:49:49,490 --> 00:49:47,940
they could like potentially they could

1204
00:49:51,650 --> 00:49:49,500
be plant animals

1205
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:51,660
like a photosynthesizing animals

1206
00:49:55,970 --> 00:49:54,000
although that's probably not a very

1207
00:49:57,530 --> 00:49:55,980
efficient way to gather your energy if

1208
00:49:59,450 --> 00:49:57,540
you're an animal

1209
00:50:02,210 --> 00:49:59,460
um there are some symbiotic bacteria um

1210
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:02,220
algae which live in some snails and they

1211
00:50:07,309 --> 00:50:04,079
do something kind of intermediate with

1212
00:50:07,970 --> 00:50:07,319
that they derive some benefits from each

1213
00:50:10,670 --> 00:50:07,980
other

1214
00:50:12,770 --> 00:50:10,680
but there's no full-blown photosynthetic

1215
00:50:15,770 --> 00:50:12,780
animal that we know of so that's a

1216
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:15,780
potential alien life form as well well

1217
00:50:18,589 --> 00:50:17,520
this is something I was uh sort of

1218
00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:18,599
thinking about from what you were

1219
00:50:22,849 --> 00:50:20,220
talking about Louise like the chemical

1220
00:50:25,309 --> 00:50:22,859
uh biochemical reactions and stuff like

1221
00:50:27,710 --> 00:50:25,319
that yeah to like I was wondering to

1222
00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:27,720
what extent those chemical reactions do

1223
00:50:32,390 --> 00:50:30,900
occur uh just purely in nature uh you

1224
00:50:34,190 --> 00:50:32,400
know and you know we could say that all

1225
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:34,200
of this is purely mechanistic obviously

1226
00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:36,660
but independent of what we would ascribe

1227
00:50:41,569 --> 00:50:38,339
a living thing like I know that there

1228
00:50:43,370 --> 00:50:41,579
are organic molecules that are found in

1229
00:50:44,809 --> 00:50:43,380
uh like comets and stuff like that

1230
00:50:46,849 --> 00:50:44,819
doesn't mean that living things created

1231
00:50:49,549 --> 00:50:46,859
those molecules but they uh they exist

1232
00:50:51,170 --> 00:50:49,559
out there and uh just one other little

1233
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:51,180
thing is that I when I was looking at

1234
00:50:54,890 --> 00:50:53,280
the definition of life like what a

1235
00:50:56,390 --> 00:50:54,900
living thing is in relation to this

1236
00:50:58,250 --> 00:50:56,400
plasma stuff trying to figure out what

1237
00:51:00,770 --> 00:50:58,260
the heck they're talking about what I

1238
00:51:04,069 --> 00:51:00,780
found was that the definition of living

1239
00:51:07,069 --> 00:51:04,079
thing has been changed over and over and

1240
00:51:09,230 --> 00:51:07,079
over again in relation frequently to

1241
00:51:11,809 --> 00:51:09,240
microscope technology technology because

1242
00:51:14,510 --> 00:51:11,819
each subsequent technological

1243
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:14,520
advancement it is that no known

1244
00:51:20,030 --> 00:51:18,480
mechanism of X size could be producing

1245
00:51:21,410 --> 00:51:20,040
the definitional criteria of life and

1246
00:51:24,170 --> 00:51:21,420
then you make a better microscope and

1247
00:51:26,990 --> 00:51:24,180
then a smaller again it's uh it's isn't

1248
00:51:29,809 --> 00:51:27,000
it like Von luenhook who found cells for

1249
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:29,819
the first time with the microscope that

1250
00:51:35,690 --> 00:51:32,400
we are like deep in the annals of Leah's

1251
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,700
high school biology knowledge

1252
00:51:39,530 --> 00:51:37,920
um but right yeah and he called

1253
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:39,540
themselves because they were like monk

1254
00:51:43,730 --> 00:51:41,400
cells or monks quarters yeah anyway

1255
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:43,740
right oh yeah remember the first like uh

1256
00:51:47,630 --> 00:51:45,359
one of the first scientists I've found

1257
00:51:49,549 --> 00:51:47,640
like bacteria and stuff I remember in

1258
00:51:51,049 --> 00:51:49,559
his notes he uh I believe it was a

1259
00:51:54,290 --> 00:51:51,059
Scottish scientist he described them as

1260
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:54,300
we beasties everywhere he's like they're

1261
00:52:03,230 --> 00:52:00,170
but you mentioned um the uh things on

1262
00:52:04,370 --> 00:52:03,240
comets and outer space Campbell which is

1263
00:52:07,370 --> 00:52:04,380
important for something called

1264
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:07,380
panspermia this is the idea that life

1265
00:52:11,390 --> 00:52:09,839
was Seated on Earth or at least the the

1266
00:52:14,569 --> 00:52:11,400
precursors of life may have been

1267
00:52:17,210 --> 00:52:14,579
provided by meteorites or comets

1268
00:52:19,609 --> 00:52:17,220
and so we do find a lot of a lot of

1269
00:52:20,990 --> 00:52:19,619
these uh by organic molecules out in

1270
00:52:22,190 --> 00:52:21,000
space but that doesn't mean that there's

1271
00:52:24,950 --> 00:52:22,200
anything

1272
00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:24,960
that life originated there but it is

1273
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:27,540
possible that um the sprinkling of life

1274
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:29,760
or the transfer sorry not life the um

1275
00:52:35,930 --> 00:52:33,359
the sprinkling of organic material uh in

1276
00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:35,940
other words hydrocarbons from space may

1277
00:52:40,849 --> 00:52:38,040
have um contributed to

1278
00:52:43,370 --> 00:52:40,859
life on Earth are developing some people

1279
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:43,380
also think that um life on Earth came

1280
00:52:48,290 --> 00:52:44,640
from Mars

1281
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:48,300
by hitching a ride on a um meteorite and

1282
00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:51,359
that Mars is like the Genesis site uh

1283
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:53,160
but that's still a controversial

1284
00:52:58,309 --> 00:52:55,760
uh view obviously

1285
00:53:00,470 --> 00:52:58,319
does that not push the question back

1286
00:53:02,450 --> 00:53:00,480
again it does yeah exactly

1287
00:53:05,990 --> 00:53:02,460
yeah oh yeah you'd have to explain how

1288
00:53:11,150 --> 00:53:06,000
the Martians uh arose there's

1289
00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:11,160
um do is is someone who has professional

1290
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:13,260
and intellectual exposure to these

1291
00:53:19,730 --> 00:53:16,680
subjects is the panspermia hypothesis

1292
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:19,740
taken seriously in any sense is it

1293
00:53:26,990 --> 00:53:23,520
entertained cool Nick Lanes is not

1294
00:53:30,770 --> 00:53:27,000
credited however uh but it is it is a

1295
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:32,750
we have a question from the audience

1296
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:34,800
member here the Earth are we alive maybe

1297
00:53:40,849 --> 00:53:37,980
life is an illusion no we are we are all

1298
00:53:43,490 --> 00:53:40,859
trapped in YouTube samsara right now

1299
00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:43,500
engaging in the Eternal cycle of death

1300
00:53:47,809 --> 00:53:45,599
and rebirth but if we get enough

1301
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:47,819
subscribers eventually we'll be freed

1302
00:53:52,130 --> 00:53:49,920
from this and enter I don't know Super

1303
00:53:53,210 --> 00:53:52,140
Chat Nirvana

1304
00:53:55,069 --> 00:53:53,220
um

1305
00:53:57,770 --> 00:53:55,079
that is a good question it's something

1306
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:57,780
that I have uh begun to increasingly

1307
00:54:03,589 --> 00:54:00,240
think about the more I dive into the

1308
00:54:06,589 --> 00:54:03,599
nature of uh what it means to be alive

1309
00:54:09,170 --> 00:54:06,599
and when you try to nail it down it does

1310
00:54:11,210 --> 00:54:09,180
appear to be a little bit slippery uh it

1311
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:11,220
gets away from me a little bit the the

1312
00:54:16,670 --> 00:54:15,119
question of life and what living is is a

1313
00:54:19,790 --> 00:54:16,680
little bit different

1314
00:54:21,349 --> 00:54:19,800
um so Nick Lane talks about whether it

1315
00:54:23,770 --> 00:54:21,359
might be better to talk about what is

1316
00:54:26,990 --> 00:54:23,780
living instead of what is life

1317
00:54:29,450 --> 00:54:27,000
so living is a dynamic process which

1318
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:29,460
involves disequilibrium with the

1319
00:54:34,190 --> 00:54:31,380
environment and the dissipation of heat

1320
00:54:36,109 --> 00:54:34,200
and disorder and you can think about it

1321
00:54:38,750 --> 00:54:36,119
in terms of a dynamic thermodynamic

1322
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:38,760
process and then there it's more

1323
00:54:43,549 --> 00:54:41,280
concrete because you can talk about

1324
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:43,559
um that you're converting something with

1325
00:54:47,809 --> 00:54:45,599
high or low entropy to something with

1326
00:54:50,510 --> 00:54:47,819
high entropy and you're buying off

1327
00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:50,520
your complexity by adding disorder to

1328
00:54:54,530 --> 00:54:52,160
the environment so that's a very

1329
00:54:55,970 --> 00:54:54,540
mechanistic and

1330
00:54:58,250 --> 00:54:55,980
um you know strict kind of definition

1331
00:55:01,309 --> 00:54:58,260
whereas if you're asking what is life

1332
00:55:04,809 --> 00:55:01,319
many things which are

1333
00:55:07,130 --> 00:55:04,819
supposedly alive then they're not doing

1334
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:07,140
many of the things which we often

1335
00:55:11,210 --> 00:55:09,359
attribute to them so something doesn't

1336
00:55:14,329 --> 00:55:11,220
have to be reproducing in order to be

1337
00:55:16,010 --> 00:55:14,339
alive something can

1338
00:55:18,370 --> 00:55:16,020
um you know viruses are often not

1339
00:55:20,750 --> 00:55:18,380
thought of as being alive but they do

1340
00:55:22,910 --> 00:55:20,760
reproduce and so it gets a little bit

1341
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:22,920
fuzzy there and also when we're thinking

1342
00:55:27,710 --> 00:55:24,960
about the origin of life like exactly

1343
00:55:30,290 --> 00:55:27,720
what point can we say that it jumped

1344
00:55:33,049 --> 00:55:30,300
from being non-life to life maybe that's

1345
00:55:34,430 --> 00:55:33,059
just a useless question anyway

1346
00:55:36,890 --> 00:55:34,440
and that's

1347
00:55:38,630 --> 00:55:36,900
um audience member Brooke asked didn't

1348
00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:38,640
someone create DNA just using

1349
00:55:43,270 --> 00:55:40,680
electricity and water like life was a

1350
00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:43,280
broadest frequency that life will like

1351
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:45,839
oh broadcast frequency that life will

1352
00:55:49,250 --> 00:55:48,480
appear where it can yeah I've heard that

1353
00:55:52,490 --> 00:55:49,260
too

1354
00:55:55,370 --> 00:55:52,500
um but Lewis like you've said it's a

1355
00:55:58,609 --> 00:55:55,380
question if it can even be answered of

1356
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:58,619
pinpointing this crossover from

1357
00:56:05,030 --> 00:55:59,280
um

1358
00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:05,040
the DNA components yeah onto some kind

1359
00:56:14,450 --> 00:56:12,829
yeah I mean DNA I think uh the viewer

1360
00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:14,460
was thinking about the milieuri

1361
00:56:20,210 --> 00:56:17,040
experiments which were done in the 50s

1362
00:56:23,690 --> 00:56:20,220
and they were you were basically running

1363
00:56:26,569 --> 00:56:23,700
um gas with different compounds through

1364
00:56:29,329 --> 00:56:26,579
um electricity to simulate lightning and

1365
00:56:31,130 --> 00:56:29,339
then you get some biomolecules forming

1366
00:56:33,410 --> 00:56:31,140
although some of the assumptions were

1367
00:56:35,150 --> 00:56:33,420
wrong but then they they did it under

1368
00:56:36,410 --> 00:56:35,160
different atmospheric conditions and you

1369
00:56:39,470 --> 00:56:36,420
still got some

1370
00:56:40,970 --> 00:56:39,480
important biomolecules DNA is a little

1371
00:56:41,809 --> 00:56:40,980
bit more complex

1372
00:56:43,730 --> 00:56:41,819
um

1373
00:56:47,089 --> 00:56:43,740
and there's different hypotheses about

1374
00:56:49,390 --> 00:56:47,099
how DNA got started but I think that I

1375
00:56:53,150 --> 00:56:49,400
favor the the

1376
00:56:55,609 --> 00:56:53,160
metabolism first idea first of all you

1377
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:55,619
need some sort of engine of metabolism

1378
00:57:02,150 --> 00:56:58,319
to even produce something like DNA like

1379
00:57:04,910 --> 00:57:02,160
many intermediate steps and um

1380
00:57:07,130 --> 00:57:04,920
you know people have often I think maybe

1381
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:07,140
Richard Dawkins with his selfish Gene

1382
00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:09,720
idea has had an inordinate influence on

1383
00:57:15,049 --> 00:57:11,760
biology because he talks about

1384
00:57:17,450 --> 00:57:15,059
self-replicating molecules like floating

1385
00:57:19,309 --> 00:57:17,460
around in the sea and then

1386
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:19,319
you know it's not really explained how

1387
00:57:24,650 --> 00:57:20,700
that

1388
00:57:27,290 --> 00:57:24,660
think you need something like a

1389
00:57:28,910 --> 00:57:27,300
hydrothermal van to get the engine

1390
00:57:32,510 --> 00:57:28,920
started and then you can get more

1391
00:57:36,770 --> 00:57:34,609
anyway I'm being very simplistic here

1392
00:57:38,750 --> 00:57:36,780
but um that's basically kind of the

1393
00:57:41,450 --> 00:57:38,760
outlines of of that

1394
00:57:47,210 --> 00:57:44,510
um let me just mention uh mitochondria

1395
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:47,220
since you did Leah

1396
00:57:53,750 --> 00:57:49,200
the PowerHouse of the cell right here

1397
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:53,760
front and center yep so these are um

1398
00:57:58,309 --> 00:57:56,640
found in eukaryotic cells some

1399
00:58:00,010 --> 00:57:58,319
eukaryotic cells have got thousands of

1400
00:58:02,390 --> 00:58:00,020
these and other ones have got only

1401
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:02,400
dozens or a few hundred depends on the

1402
00:58:05,750 --> 00:58:04,319
function of the cell so you find a lot

1403
00:58:09,170 --> 00:58:05,760
of these in muscle cells because they

1404
00:58:11,690 --> 00:58:09,180
need a lot of uh they need to produce a

1405
00:58:12,349 --> 00:58:11,700
lot of ATP but

1406
00:58:15,290 --> 00:58:12,359
um

1407
00:58:19,430 --> 00:58:15,300
these are actually they they came from

1408
00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:19,440
bacteria so what happened was that

1409
00:58:25,309 --> 00:58:22,160
um deep in the past one of the archaea

1410
00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:25,319
engulfed a bacteria

1411
00:58:29,690 --> 00:58:27,480
so the archaea are another type of

1412
00:58:31,549 --> 00:58:29,700
prokaryotic cell and then you've got the

1413
00:58:33,670 --> 00:58:31,559
other domain of the prokaryote called

1414
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:33,680
the bacteria so there was an

1415
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:36,960
endosymbiosis where a bacterium was

1416
00:58:43,430 --> 00:58:39,599
engulfed by an archaeon and then it

1417
00:58:46,309 --> 00:58:43,440
eventually evolved into mitochondria

1418
00:58:51,230 --> 00:58:46,319
okay so these um have got their own DNA

1419
00:58:53,089 --> 00:58:51,240
only a relative handful of genes but um

1420
00:58:56,089 --> 00:58:53,099
what's going on here is that you've got

1421
00:58:58,730 --> 00:58:56,099
this outer membrane okay and this inner

1422
00:59:01,490 --> 00:58:58,740
membrane which is very invaginated it's

1423
00:59:04,130 --> 00:59:01,500
very convoluted in order to increase the

1424
00:59:06,890 --> 00:59:04,140
surface area and there on the surface

1425
00:59:09,710 --> 00:59:06,900
area of that inner membrane you've got a

1426
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:09,720
series of channel proteins which are

1427
00:59:16,250 --> 00:59:13,920
shunting electrons and sending them to

1428
00:59:19,190 --> 00:59:16,260
in our case oxygen molecules which are

1429
00:59:21,230 --> 00:59:19,200
the electron acceptors and then

1430
00:59:23,390 --> 00:59:21,240
ultimately powering the production of

1431
00:59:26,210 --> 00:59:23,400
adenosine triphosphate which is the

1432
00:59:28,030 --> 00:59:26,220
energy currency of the cell so let me

1433
00:59:32,450 --> 00:59:28,040
just show you um what the electron

1434
00:59:37,130 --> 00:59:34,190
um and by the way the citric acid cycle

1435
00:59:39,470 --> 00:59:37,140
is also taking place in the mitochondria

1436
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:39,480
but the electron transport chain is

1437
00:59:48,349 --> 00:59:44,990
um

1438
00:59:50,390 --> 00:59:48,359
bloody oh here it is

1439
00:59:52,609 --> 00:59:50,400
yeah so this is the electron transport

1440
00:59:55,490 --> 00:59:52,619
chain okay so here's here's the outer

1441
00:59:57,170 --> 00:59:55,500
membrane of the mitochondria here is the

1442
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:57,180
inner membrane that I showed you the

1443
01:00:03,170 --> 01:00:00,000
invaginated one and then you've got this

1444
01:00:05,089 --> 01:00:03,180
nadh which is an electron donor

1445
01:00:08,809 --> 01:00:05,099
it was formed from the breakdown of

1446
01:00:11,329 --> 01:00:08,819
glucose or other food molecules so we

1447
01:00:13,609 --> 01:00:11,339
get our glucose from eating plant matter

1448
01:00:16,730 --> 01:00:13,619
or animal matter and then it gets broken

1449
01:00:19,250 --> 01:00:16,740
down and we get some nadh which is

1450
01:00:20,770 --> 01:00:19,260
contributing electrons so the electrons

1451
01:00:24,230 --> 01:00:20,780
are being shunted

1452
01:00:26,030 --> 01:00:24,240
across these surface proteins these are

1453
01:00:29,930 --> 01:00:26,040
proteins these blue ones which are

1454
01:00:32,569 --> 01:00:29,940
embedded into the in a membrane okay

1455
01:00:35,630 --> 01:00:32,579
so the electrons are going like that

1456
01:00:38,750 --> 01:00:35,640
sent along and then um eventually

1457
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:38,760
recombined here with oxygen and uh

1458
01:00:46,370 --> 01:00:42,480
hydrogen super you know produce water

1459
01:00:49,010 --> 01:00:46,380
but as they're being shunted along uh h

1460
01:00:51,710 --> 01:00:49,020
plus which is just free protons are

1461
01:00:53,930 --> 01:00:51,720
being extruded through the protein okay

1462
01:00:56,210 --> 01:00:53,940
so they're coming up they're not

1463
01:00:57,950 --> 01:00:56,220
combining with the electron

1464
01:01:00,349 --> 01:00:57,960
uh because the electrons just going this

1465
01:01:02,809 --> 01:01:00,359
way and um but they're going through a

1466
01:01:04,670 --> 01:01:02,819
separate Channel within the protein and

1467
01:01:06,650 --> 01:01:04,680
they're accumulating up here so you're

1468
01:01:09,230 --> 01:01:06,660
getting this electrical charge

1469
01:01:10,010 --> 01:01:09,240
difference between this side and this

1470
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:10,020
side

1471
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:12,240
and it's actually a very powerful charge

1472
01:01:14,510 --> 01:01:13,920
difference

1473
01:01:16,910 --> 01:01:14,520
um

1474
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:16,920
and so the only way these can come back

1475
01:01:21,710 --> 01:01:19,440
down is to go through this other protein

1476
01:01:23,569 --> 01:01:21,720
which is the ATP synthase

1477
01:01:26,390 --> 01:01:23,579
this is actually a turbine it actually

1478
01:01:30,049 --> 01:01:26,400
spins so as the protons come back down

1479
01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:30,059
they spin uh it causes this to spin and

1480
01:01:34,609 --> 01:01:32,880
then that combines adenosine diphosphate

1481
01:01:36,230 --> 01:01:34,619
with a free phosphate and then that

1482
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:36,240
forms ATP

1483
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:38,640
right and so that's really the engine

1484
01:01:42,890 --> 01:01:41,040
for most of the ATP production in our

1485
01:01:45,410 --> 01:01:42,900
cells and that's taking place in the

1486
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:45,420
mitochondria now this also gets onto

1487
01:01:51,109 --> 01:01:48,000
something that Nick Lane uh details in

1488
01:01:55,130 --> 01:01:51,119
especially vital the vital question book

1489
01:01:57,170 --> 01:01:55,140
which is why is it that um life stayed

1490
01:02:01,069 --> 01:01:57,180
so simple for so long

1491
01:02:02,809 --> 01:02:01,079
okay so this is a timeline of the Earth

1492
01:02:04,910 --> 01:02:02,819
um you've probably seen representation

1493
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:04,920
of this before

1494
01:02:08,829 --> 01:02:06,960
so this is showing um you know the

1495
01:02:12,289 --> 01:02:08,839
origin of the earth probably about

1496
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:12,299
4.5-ish billion years ago and then water

1497
01:02:16,730 --> 01:02:14,640
and then Luca is the last Universal

1498
01:02:18,950 --> 01:02:16,740
common ancestor so that's the ancestor

1499
01:02:22,370 --> 01:02:18,960
of all life probably a rose in those

1500
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,380
hydrothermal vents and um

1501
01:02:26,750 --> 01:02:24,240
most of the surface of the Earth was

1502
01:02:28,849 --> 01:02:26,760
covered in water back then earliest

1503
01:02:30,589 --> 01:02:28,859
fossils that we find

1504
01:02:31,910 --> 01:02:30,599
um and the late heavy bombardment

1505
01:02:35,150 --> 01:02:31,920
meteorites

1506
01:02:36,770 --> 01:02:35,160
single-celled life definitely by here it

1507
01:02:39,289 --> 01:02:36,780
exists

1508
01:02:41,809 --> 01:02:39,299
and then um earliest oxygen in the

1509
01:02:42,770 --> 01:02:41,819
atmosphere so you get some

1510
01:02:45,650 --> 01:02:42,780
um

1511
01:02:47,990 --> 01:02:45,660
photosynthesis evolving so that's using

1512
01:02:49,010 --> 01:02:48,000
light from the sun in order to produce

1513
01:02:51,710 --> 01:02:49,020
sugar

1514
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:51,720
and then um it's it's also expelling

1515
01:02:57,170 --> 01:02:54,720
oxygen as a waste product but that would

1516
01:02:58,670 --> 01:02:57,180
later on build up very significantly in

1517
01:03:00,650 --> 01:02:58,680
the atmosphere

1518
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:00,660
and then you would get aerobic

1519
01:03:04,789 --> 01:03:03,599
respiration evolving which uses O2 as

1520
01:03:10,190 --> 01:03:04,799
the electron

1521
01:03:13,490 --> 01:03:10,200
transport chain

1522
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:13,500
okay so here you've got O2

1523
01:03:18,410 --> 01:03:16,079
the electron wants to go to the O2

1524
01:03:20,270 --> 01:03:18,420
that's the most efficient electron

1525
01:03:23,510 --> 01:03:20,280
acceptor that we know of but there are

1526
01:03:25,190 --> 01:03:23,520
other ones which life used before oxygen

1527
01:03:27,250 --> 01:03:25,200
built up in the atmosphere and some

1528
01:03:31,069 --> 01:03:27,260
organisms still use those alternative

1529
01:03:37,130 --> 01:03:33,730
um so

1530
01:03:40,910 --> 01:03:37,140
photosynthesis and then um very

1531
01:03:43,849 --> 01:03:40,920
very kind of took like billions of years

1532
01:03:45,530 --> 01:03:43,859
for eukaryotes to arise okay and that

1533
01:03:47,930 --> 01:03:45,540
was probably because of the Union of

1534
01:03:51,289 --> 01:03:47,940
that archaeon and that bacterian uh

1535
01:03:53,569 --> 01:03:51,299
bacteria and then um that produced um

1536
01:03:56,270 --> 01:03:53,579
evolved into mitochondria in our cells

1537
01:03:57,530 --> 01:03:56,280
that bacteria so why did that take so

1538
01:04:00,530 --> 01:03:57,540
long

1539
01:04:05,150 --> 01:04:00,540
uh well probably because it was very a

1540
01:04:10,190 --> 01:04:05,160
very unlikely event for one thing yeah

1541
01:04:12,770 --> 01:04:10,200
the mitochondria in our cells that

1542
01:04:15,950 --> 01:04:12,780
the endosymbiosis that led to that

1543
01:04:18,289 --> 01:04:15,960
probably only happened once so there are

1544
01:04:21,950 --> 01:04:18,299
actually many um endosymbioses between

1545
01:04:23,930 --> 01:04:21,960
bacteria and prokaryotes but they do not

1546
01:04:26,210 --> 01:04:23,940
lead to mitochondria

1547
01:04:28,910 --> 01:04:26,220
and so that evolution of mitochondria

1548
01:04:30,650 --> 01:04:28,920
probably just happened once

1549
01:04:32,750 --> 01:04:30,660
and that is what really allowed

1550
01:04:35,690 --> 01:04:32,760
eukaryotes to become

1551
01:04:38,690 --> 01:04:35,700
uh complex because that gives you more

1552
01:04:41,329 --> 01:04:38,700
internal energy okay

1553
01:04:43,450 --> 01:04:41,339
um prokaryotes tend to be very limited

1554
01:04:46,970 --> 01:04:43,460
in size they tend to be very very small

1555
01:04:49,730 --> 01:04:46,980
and the reason is that they do their

1556
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:49,740
electron transport chain on their plasma

1557
01:04:59,270 --> 01:04:55,430
um because they don't have any internal

1558
01:05:02,329 --> 01:04:59,280
mitochondria so that places a limit on

1559
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:02,339
how big you can get and if you have them

1560
01:05:06,470 --> 01:05:04,559
internally then that allows you to do

1561
01:05:09,170 --> 01:05:06,480
more things okay

1562
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:09,180
so the things that eukaryotes do such as

1563
01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:11,760
you know being multicellular which also

1564
01:05:17,210 --> 01:05:14,160
took a long time by the way

1565
01:05:18,890 --> 01:05:17,220
um sexual reproduction probably evolved

1566
01:05:20,690 --> 01:05:18,900
around there

1567
01:05:23,630 --> 01:05:20,700
um and many other things that eukaryotes

1568
01:05:25,670 --> 01:05:23,640
can do that prokaryotes cannot do

1569
01:05:28,730 --> 01:05:25,680
so mitochondria are really at the center

1570
01:05:31,069 --> 01:05:28,740
of that and it's probably the case that

1571
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:31,079
there was an energetic barrier you have

1572
01:05:35,329 --> 01:05:32,880
to have mitochondria in order to get

1573
01:05:38,650 --> 01:05:35,339
much more complex because if you think

1574
01:05:41,390 --> 01:05:38,660
about it prokaryotes they're very very

1575
01:05:43,849 --> 01:05:41,400
biochemically diverse so it can't just

1576
01:05:45,950 --> 01:05:43,859
be because of information there has to

1577
01:05:49,309 --> 01:05:45,960
be some sort of extra con constraint

1578
01:05:50,809 --> 01:05:49,319
which limited the um evolution of

1579
01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:50,819
complexity so that was probably

1580
01:05:56,210 --> 01:05:53,640
availability

1581
01:05:57,430 --> 01:05:56,220
any questions

1582
01:06:00,109 --> 01:05:57,440
um I was thinking about okay so

1583
01:06:03,890 --> 01:06:00,119
mitochondria I know that

1584
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:03,900
those are related in some way to uh

1585
01:06:10,309 --> 01:06:08,099
inheriting genetics from the maternal

1586
01:06:13,549 --> 01:06:10,319
line is that right yeah exactly yeah

1587
01:06:16,010 --> 01:06:13,559
okay and there are a variety of genetic

1588
01:06:17,870 --> 01:06:16,020
disorders that I'm aware of in

1589
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:17,880
especially in

1590
01:06:22,490 --> 01:06:20,640
um small populations and isolated

1591
01:06:26,270 --> 01:06:22,500
populations so I know for example in

1592
01:06:28,250 --> 01:06:26,280
Iceland in um uh and in some other

1593
01:06:31,250 --> 01:06:28,260
populations they've done these studies

1594
01:06:32,990 --> 01:06:31,260
based on the genetic diseases being a

1595
01:06:36,529 --> 01:06:33,000
higher prevalence based on mitochondria

1596
01:06:39,309 --> 01:06:36,539
now like uh do you know why is it that

1597
01:06:42,289 --> 01:06:39,319
why is it that some DNA is contained in

1598
01:06:43,849 --> 01:06:42,299
mitochondria and like why are they the

1599
01:06:47,150 --> 01:06:43,859
two sets like what is going on there

1600
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:47,160
like yeah yeah so the electron transport

1601
01:06:52,490 --> 01:06:49,200
chain you've got these proteins which

1602
01:06:55,069 --> 01:06:52,500
are encoded by genes because proteins

1603
01:06:57,890 --> 01:06:55,079
are encoded by genes

1604
01:06:59,930 --> 01:06:57,900
um and many of those genes are present

1605
01:07:02,930 --> 01:06:59,940
in the nucleus of the eukaryotic cell

1606
01:07:05,690 --> 01:07:02,940
and some some of them a relative handful

1607
01:07:09,710 --> 01:07:05,700
are encoded by the mitochondria's own

1608
01:07:12,190 --> 01:07:09,720
genome okay now I think um mitochondria

1609
01:07:15,950 --> 01:07:12,200
they've only got like 30 or so genes

1610
01:07:19,670 --> 01:07:15,960
whereas the eukaryotic the the nuclear

1611
01:07:22,609 --> 01:07:19,680
DNA has got um thousands okay over 20

1612
01:07:24,529 --> 01:07:22,619
000. so it seems to be according to Nick

1613
01:07:27,770 --> 01:07:24,539
Lane it seems to be the case that you

1614
01:07:29,750 --> 01:07:27,780
need a minimum amount of genes that stay

1615
01:07:33,529 --> 01:07:29,760
behind in the mitochondria because they

1616
01:07:35,510 --> 01:07:33,539
need to carefully coordinate

1617
01:07:38,750 --> 01:07:35,520
um the actions of the electron transport

1618
01:07:41,450 --> 01:07:38,760
chain so you need those wow okay yeah

1619
01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:41,460
minimum genome just to stay behind to do

1620
01:07:45,470 --> 01:07:42,960
some critical things which have to be

1621
01:07:46,809 --> 01:07:45,480
done quickly

1622
01:07:49,970 --> 01:07:46,819
damn okay

1623
01:07:52,250 --> 01:07:49,980
mitochondrial DNA I think is what's used

1624
01:07:53,630 --> 01:07:52,260
for

1625
01:07:57,410 --> 01:07:53,640
um

1626
01:07:59,990 --> 01:07:57,420
tracing lineage I feel like that's what

1627
01:08:02,349 --> 01:08:00,000
I've heard when you hear about how

1628
01:08:05,990 --> 01:08:02,359
gungus Khan

1629
01:08:06,890 --> 01:08:06,000
has millions and millions of Offspring

1630
01:08:09,650 --> 01:08:06,900
or

1631
01:08:11,450 --> 01:08:09,660
um you know the the matrilineal line can

1632
01:08:14,089 --> 01:08:11,460
be traced back because it's uh

1633
01:08:18,829 --> 01:08:14,099
exclusively inherits it's passed on by

1634
01:08:22,189 --> 01:08:18,839
uh in the egg cells okay and um

1635
01:08:24,050 --> 01:08:22,199
or virtually Never by um the sperm so

1636
01:08:25,490 --> 01:08:24,060
you can trace back the matrilineal line

1637
01:08:28,010 --> 01:08:25,500
there's also something you might might

1638
01:08:29,870 --> 01:08:28,020
have heard of called mitochondria or Eve

1639
01:08:32,809 --> 01:08:29,880
which oh yeah

1640
01:08:36,110 --> 01:08:32,819
um one of our audience members just

1641
01:08:37,729 --> 01:08:36,120
mentioned mitochondrial eve

1642
01:08:40,809 --> 01:08:37,739
so it does not mean that she was the

1643
01:08:44,150 --> 01:08:40,819
first woman it just means that the the

1644
01:08:46,189 --> 01:08:44,160
mitochondrial DNA which exists today can

1645
01:08:49,130 --> 01:08:46,199
be traced back to her

1646
01:08:50,870 --> 01:08:49,140
um so yeah I mean interesting thing

1647
01:08:52,669 --> 01:08:50,880
about the fact that some of the

1648
01:08:54,169 --> 01:08:52,679
mitochondria some of the genes are still

1649
01:08:57,289 --> 01:08:54,179
in the mitochondria is that you can get

1650
01:09:01,189 --> 01:08:57,299
incompatibilities between the nuclear

1651
01:09:03,410 --> 01:09:01,199
and mitochondrial DNA so in the electron

1652
01:09:05,930 --> 01:09:03,420
transport chain these proteins have to

1653
01:09:09,050 --> 01:09:05,940
be pretty much perfectly placed

1654
01:09:10,910 --> 01:09:09,060
and even the iron sulfur clusters within

1655
01:09:13,550 --> 01:09:10,920
them which are involved in the shunting

1656
01:09:16,669 --> 01:09:13,560
of the electrons uh Within These um

1657
01:09:18,890 --> 01:09:16,679
proteins also have to be you know within

1658
01:09:21,829 --> 01:09:18,900
angstroms of diff of distance they have

1659
01:09:24,590 --> 01:09:21,839
to be very very precisely placed if

1660
01:09:27,410 --> 01:09:24,600
there is any incompatibility between the

1661
01:09:29,930 --> 01:09:27,420
mitochondrial DNA and the nuclear DNA

1662
01:09:32,150 --> 01:09:29,940
you can get you know these being

1663
01:09:34,669 --> 01:09:32,160
sub-optimal and then uh you don't

1664
01:09:37,309 --> 01:09:34,679
produce enough ATP and animals can

1665
01:09:39,289 --> 01:09:37,319
actually abort their fetuses when um

1666
01:09:41,150 --> 01:09:39,299
they're not good enough so like when

1667
01:09:43,930 --> 01:09:41,160
they're electron transport chains are

1668
01:09:46,669 --> 01:09:43,940
not sufficient for their ecological

1669
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:46,679
requirements they can just spontaneously

1670
01:09:51,709 --> 01:09:49,440
abort the fetus you know you know to

1671
01:09:54,050 --> 01:09:51,719
avoid not putting any more resources

1672
01:09:58,010 --> 01:09:54,060
into that so the bar like there's some

1673
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:58,020
sort of automatic mechanism that can uh

1674
01:10:02,689 --> 01:10:00,480
tell the efficiency essentially that's

1675
01:10:06,350 --> 01:10:02,699
so interesting I think I think little

1676
01:10:11,090 --> 01:10:06,360
buddy and little buddy's sister Minnie

1677
01:10:13,490 --> 01:10:11,100
are yes expressing their enthusiasm for

1678
01:10:16,729 --> 01:10:13,500
this evening's show

1679
01:10:18,709 --> 01:10:16,739
um so we got a question uh from Mitch a

1680
01:10:21,970 --> 01:10:18,719
here cellular material is the hardware

1681
01:10:27,890 --> 01:10:25,790
uh cellular material so I guess that's

1682
01:10:29,870 --> 01:10:27,900
like the hardware and I guess genetics

1683
01:10:30,950 --> 01:10:29,880
and DNA would be the software right

1684
01:10:33,229 --> 01:10:30,960
right

1685
01:10:37,250 --> 01:10:35,630
um although interestingly

1686
01:10:40,010 --> 01:10:37,260
RNA

1687
01:10:42,050 --> 01:10:40,020
um is thought by some scientists to have

1688
01:10:44,689 --> 01:10:42,060
been the original

1689
01:10:46,610 --> 01:10:44,699
um sort of important molecule because

1690
01:10:48,530 --> 01:10:46,620
it's got

1691
01:10:50,330 --> 01:10:48,540
some things it does well which is

1692
01:10:52,790 --> 01:10:50,340
similar to protein and something similar

1693
01:10:54,229 --> 01:10:52,800
to DNA but it's not as good as either

1694
01:10:56,510 --> 01:10:54,239
one

1695
01:10:57,770 --> 01:10:56,520
um but we still use RNA as an

1696
01:11:00,830 --> 01:10:57,780
intermediate

1697
01:11:03,350 --> 01:11:00,840
um you know transcribing DNA messages

1698
01:11:06,590 --> 01:11:03,360
messages into RNA messages and then

1699
01:11:09,169 --> 01:11:06,600
Translating that into protein so it's

1700
01:11:11,030 --> 01:11:09,179
still an intermediate that we use

1701
01:11:13,610 --> 01:11:11,040
um but yeah there is that interesting

1702
01:11:17,090 --> 01:11:13,620
sort of Hardware software distinction

1703
01:11:20,030 --> 01:11:17,100
but probably the hardware Evolved first

1704
01:11:22,490 --> 01:11:20,040
okay and we have this question here from

1705
01:11:24,590 --> 01:11:22,500
fig is it conceivable that DNA and

1706
01:11:27,110 --> 01:11:24,600
mitochondria can be manipulated with

1707
01:11:29,870 --> 01:11:27,120
crispr and what kind of chimeras can

1708
01:11:33,590 --> 01:11:29,880
conceivably be created

1709
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,600
yeah yeah crisp is very powerful

1710
01:11:41,810 --> 01:11:35,520
um

1711
01:11:48,350 --> 01:11:44,330
I guess it's in principle it's possible

1712
01:11:50,450 --> 01:11:48,360
to increase ATP production

1713
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:50,460
um in mitochondria using something like

1714
01:11:53,630 --> 01:11:52,560
crispr but you also have to take into

1715
01:11:55,130 --> 01:11:53,640
account

1716
01:11:56,689 --> 01:11:55,140
um the interaction between the

1717
01:11:58,970 --> 01:11:56,699
mitochondrial

1718
01:12:00,530 --> 01:11:58,980
and the nuclear DNA

1719
01:12:02,750 --> 01:12:00,540
so you know you probably can't just

1720
01:12:05,390 --> 01:12:02,760
change one thing because there's a very

1721
01:12:07,250 --> 01:12:05,400
delicate balance you have to strike

1722
01:12:10,550 --> 01:12:07,260
um

1723
01:12:12,530 --> 01:12:10,560
and we we have a uh another super

1724
01:12:15,669 --> 01:12:12,540
important question here where is the dog

1725
01:12:17,930 --> 01:12:15,679
barking coming from OMG

1726
01:12:22,550 --> 01:12:17,940
from from my house

1727
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,189
all right

1728
01:12:25,199 --> 01:12:29,870
got that sorted out

1729
01:12:34,850 --> 01:12:31,010
um

1730
01:12:37,970 --> 01:12:34,860
just getting back to something you said

1731
01:12:40,370 --> 01:12:37,980
Campbell um like in Iceland or wherever

1732
01:12:43,010 --> 01:12:40,380
there are there are certainly population

1733
01:12:46,669 --> 01:12:43,020
clusters which experience more

1734
01:12:47,350 --> 01:12:46,679
diseases which are based on

1735
01:12:49,669 --> 01:12:47,360
um

1736
01:12:53,090 --> 01:12:49,679
potential incompatibilities between

1737
01:12:54,110 --> 01:12:53,100
mitochondrial nuclear DNA

1738
01:12:57,050 --> 01:12:54,120
um

1739
01:12:58,910 --> 01:12:57,060
so you can get the sorts of population

1740
01:13:00,410 --> 01:12:58,920
different population frequencies of

1741
01:13:01,669 --> 01:13:00,420
those diseases

1742
01:13:12,169 --> 01:13:01,679
um

1743
01:13:14,930 --> 01:13:12,179
animals are very complex obviously they

1744
01:13:18,110 --> 01:13:14,940
move around a lot many animals have got

1745
01:13:20,149 --> 01:13:18,120
mobile life stages other ones some of

1746
01:13:22,490 --> 01:13:20,159
them have got um sessile life stages

1747
01:13:24,590 --> 01:13:22,500
like um tunicates

1748
01:13:26,930 --> 01:13:24,600
they kind of latch onto the sea floor

1749
01:13:28,970 --> 01:13:26,940
and they stay there as adults but um

1750
01:13:32,510 --> 01:13:28,980
most animals can move around

1751
01:13:35,030 --> 01:13:32,520
um for most of their life cycle and

1752
01:13:36,890 --> 01:13:35,040
this is an animal right here

1753
01:13:39,890 --> 01:13:36,900
cephalopod

1754
01:13:42,950 --> 01:13:39,900
hey he was on the show last week

1755
01:13:44,750 --> 01:13:42,960
yeah well they're being more I'm pleased

1756
01:13:47,090 --> 01:13:44,760
to say that they've been more um thought

1757
01:13:48,890 --> 01:13:47,100
about in science fiction as like the

1758
01:13:49,970 --> 01:13:48,900
kind of archetype for what aliens might

1759
01:13:52,450 --> 01:13:49,980
be like

1760
01:13:54,530 --> 01:13:52,460
have you notice

1761
01:13:56,750 --> 01:13:54,540
yes well I think

1762
01:13:59,510 --> 01:13:56,760
um right and that

1763
01:14:01,610 --> 01:13:59,520
is I think in response to broader

1764
01:14:03,709 --> 01:14:01,620
recognition of the cognitive and

1765
01:14:06,350 --> 01:14:03,719
Consciousness capabilities of the

1766
01:14:08,330 --> 01:14:06,360
cephalopods exactly they're very

1767
01:14:11,870 --> 01:14:08,340
intelligent and they've got a high

1768
01:14:13,790 --> 01:14:11,880
degree of dexterity with their limbs uh

1769
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:13,800
but the the amazing thing is that their

1770
01:14:17,689 --> 01:14:15,600
nervous systems and the complexity of

1771
01:14:20,330 --> 01:14:17,699
the nervous systems at least are

1772
01:14:22,610 --> 01:14:20,340
convergently evolved from out so they

1773
01:14:23,930 --> 01:14:22,620
did not come from a common ancestor I

1774
01:14:26,270 --> 01:14:23,940
mean if you go back far enough that's

1775
01:14:28,130 --> 01:14:26,280
really fascinating but the yeah the

1776
01:14:31,250 --> 01:14:28,140
brains are not from a common ancestor

1777
01:14:33,649 --> 01:14:31,260
they're independently derived as other

1778
01:14:36,350 --> 01:14:33,659
eyes they've actually got better eyes

1779
01:14:37,970 --> 01:14:36,360
than we do but they're very very similar

1780
01:14:38,630 --> 01:14:37,980
to ours

1781
01:14:43,610 --> 01:14:38,640
um

1782
01:14:47,090 --> 01:14:43,620
consideration which is convergent

1783
01:14:48,350 --> 01:14:47,100
evolution which is the independent

1784
01:14:51,110 --> 01:14:48,360
um

1785
01:14:53,510 --> 01:14:51,120
evolution of traits in response to

1786
01:14:55,790 --> 01:14:53,520
similar environmental pressures okay

1787
01:14:58,250 --> 01:14:55,800
here's um

1788
01:15:00,550 --> 01:14:58,260
Simon Conway Morris who was a very big

1789
01:15:03,530 --> 01:15:00,560
advocate of um the importance of

1790
01:15:05,209 --> 01:15:03,540
convergent evolution

1791
01:15:07,189 --> 01:15:05,219
okay the underlying reason for

1792
01:15:09,649 --> 01:15:07,199
convergence seems to be that all

1793
01:15:11,990 --> 01:15:09,659
organisms are under constant scrutiny by

1794
01:15:14,090 --> 01:15:12,000
natural selection and are also subject

1795
01:15:16,130 --> 01:15:14,100
to the constraints of the physical and

1796
01:15:18,350 --> 01:15:16,140
chemical factors that severely limit the

1797
01:15:21,229 --> 01:15:18,360
action of all inhabitants of the

1798
01:15:23,870 --> 01:15:21,239
biosphere put simply conversion shows

1799
01:15:26,890 --> 01:15:23,880
that in a real world not all things are

1800
01:15:32,149 --> 01:15:29,149
to me

1801
01:15:34,550 --> 01:15:32,159
he he thinks that um he's a he's a

1802
01:15:37,010 --> 01:15:34,560
serious Scientist by the way but um yeah

1803
01:15:39,830 --> 01:15:37,020
he um

1804
01:15:43,070 --> 01:15:39,840
he makes a big uh claim which is that

1805
01:15:45,229 --> 01:15:43,080
probably extraterrestrial life of

1806
01:15:47,689 --> 01:15:45,239
intelligent extraterrestrial life

1807
01:15:48,530 --> 01:15:47,699
I'll get on to what intelligence means

1808
01:15:49,910 --> 01:15:48,540
um

1809
01:15:52,189 --> 01:15:49,920
but here I'm just in in the

1810
01:15:54,169 --> 01:15:52,199
anthropomorphic sense right outside of

1811
01:15:56,950 --> 01:15:54,179
intelligence he thinks that they would

1812
01:15:59,090 --> 01:15:56,960
be humanoid because there are certain

1813
01:16:01,130 --> 01:15:59,100
environments which select for

1814
01:16:04,189 --> 01:16:01,140
intelligence and certain things which

1815
01:16:07,010 --> 01:16:04,199
you need in order to you know manipulate

1816
01:16:09,770 --> 01:16:07,020
your environment or be able to

1817
01:16:12,410 --> 01:16:09,780
um communicate with others Etc and that

1818
01:16:14,330 --> 01:16:12,420
places limits on your morphology and

1819
01:16:16,910 --> 01:16:14,340
things like that I don't know if you

1820
01:16:19,370 --> 01:16:16,920
guys have ever seen this speculation by

1821
01:16:22,729 --> 01:16:19,380
Dale Russell

1822
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:22,739
this is a um oh yeah this is from 1980

1823
01:16:26,930 --> 01:16:24,719
and he actually copped a little bit of

1824
01:16:28,669 --> 01:16:26,940
ridicule for this but this is basically

1825
01:16:30,950 --> 01:16:28,679
just his idea of what would have

1826
01:16:33,830 --> 01:16:30,960
happened if the

1827
01:16:35,930 --> 01:16:33,840
um the KT event which was the the end of

1828
01:16:38,930 --> 01:16:35,940
the Cretaceous Period when the meteorite

1829
01:16:42,770 --> 01:16:38,940
you know struck the Yucatan Peninsula

1830
01:16:43,669 --> 01:16:42,780
leading to the extinction of dinosaurs

1831
01:16:49,130 --> 01:16:43,679
um

1832
01:16:50,149 --> 01:16:49,140
bowline impact theory was popular yet

1833
01:16:52,430 --> 01:16:50,159
but

1834
01:16:53,870 --> 01:16:52,440
the dinosaurs became extinct except for

1835
01:16:55,910 --> 01:16:53,880
the birds

1836
01:16:59,270 --> 01:16:55,920
um but imagine that had not happened is

1837
01:17:01,310 --> 01:16:59,280
it possible that a humanoid

1838
01:17:03,410 --> 01:17:01,320
dinosaur could have evolved from

1839
01:17:04,669 --> 01:17:03,420
something like this

1840
01:17:07,610 --> 01:17:04,679
um so there were some dinosaurs with

1841
01:17:08,930 --> 01:17:07,620
relatively large brains for their body

1842
01:17:09,530 --> 01:17:08,940
size

1843
01:17:12,050 --> 01:17:09,540
um

1844
01:17:15,709 --> 01:17:12,060
you know among the theropods the the

1845
01:17:17,689 --> 01:17:15,719
meat eating dinosaurs and um it's if you

1846
01:17:18,890 --> 01:17:17,699
think about our own Evolution from tree

1847
01:17:20,450 --> 01:17:18,900
dwelling

1848
01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:20,460
organisms

1849
01:17:26,090 --> 01:17:23,280
um this is not that far-fetched

1850
01:17:28,790 --> 01:17:26,100
but the question is really like does it

1851
01:17:31,490 --> 01:17:28,800
have to be that humanoid right but maybe

1852
01:17:34,669 --> 01:17:31,500
that's going too far but um I think

1853
01:17:37,070 --> 01:17:34,679
Simon Conway Morris would probably agree

1854
01:17:37,850 --> 01:17:37,080
with this speculation

1855
01:17:39,649 --> 01:17:37,860
um

1856
01:17:42,649 --> 01:17:39,659
interestingly this actually reminds me

1857
01:17:44,689 --> 01:17:42,659
of something that the Mormons believe

1858
01:17:46,810 --> 01:17:44,699
um and Conway Morris is actually a

1859
01:17:49,610 --> 01:17:46,820
religious believer he draws some

1860
01:17:52,189 --> 01:17:49,620
theological significance from convergent

1861
01:17:54,350 --> 01:17:52,199
evolution but I don't think

1862
01:17:57,229 --> 01:17:54,360
but um the Mormons believe that there

1863
01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:57,239
are people on other planets and um this

1864
01:18:04,070 --> 01:17:58,800
something like this would fit nicely

1865
01:18:08,270 --> 01:18:06,530
yep we have audience member here fig

1866
01:18:10,490 --> 01:18:08,280
commenting that some conspiracy

1867
01:18:11,930 --> 01:18:10,500
theorists actually believe this happened

1868
01:18:15,050 --> 01:18:11,940
and that this accounts for those

1869
01:18:17,930 --> 01:18:15,060
encounters with lizard-like ETS yeah

1870
01:18:20,330 --> 01:18:17,940
right the Republicans

1871
01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:20,340
there was actually a movie in the 1970s

1872
01:18:23,149 --> 01:18:21,840
it was actually a three-part movie

1873
01:18:25,850 --> 01:18:23,159
called V

1874
01:18:27,830 --> 01:18:25,860
about these um reptilians who came to

1875
01:18:28,610 --> 01:18:27,840
Earth to take over

1876
01:18:30,410 --> 01:18:28,620
um

1877
01:18:32,750 --> 01:18:30,420
but I think

1878
01:18:34,729 --> 01:18:32,760
yeah like if you think about abduction

1879
01:18:36,950 --> 01:18:34,739
experiences

1880
01:18:39,890 --> 01:18:36,960
um they're mostly or indeed contact

1881
01:18:43,490 --> 01:18:39,900
experiences um it's either human beings

1882
01:18:45,350 --> 01:18:43,500
or the Grays or something

1883
01:18:47,930 --> 01:18:45,360
basically humanoid

1884
01:18:49,790 --> 01:18:47,940
and um you know depending on what you

1885
01:18:52,010 --> 01:18:49,800
think of convergent evolution and its

1886
01:18:54,350 --> 01:18:52,020
Universe universality

1887
01:18:57,490 --> 01:18:54,360
um that could be evidence

1888
01:19:00,890 --> 01:18:57,500
the the the frequency of humanoid

1889
01:19:04,130 --> 01:19:00,900
extraterrestrials and abduction cases

1890
01:19:11,330 --> 01:19:04,140
can be seen as evidence for or against

1891
01:19:15,709 --> 01:19:13,850
um Okay so

1892
01:19:18,470 --> 01:19:15,719
animals have got they tend to have

1893
01:19:21,890 --> 01:19:18,480
complex nervous systems nervous systems

1894
01:19:22,850 --> 01:19:21,900
are a system a type of tissue which

1895
01:19:25,090 --> 01:19:22,860
gives

1896
01:19:27,350 --> 01:19:25,100
um animals a high degree of

1897
01:19:33,050 --> 01:19:27,360
responsiveness to the environment so

1898
01:19:37,250 --> 01:19:35,330
um I talked about convergent evolution

1899
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:37,260
there I hear by the way here is an

1900
01:19:43,189 --> 01:19:38,159
example

1901
01:19:45,890 --> 01:19:43,199
North America

1902
01:19:47,030 --> 01:19:45,900
uh or South America and these come from

1903
01:19:49,610 --> 01:19:47,040
Australia

1904
01:19:52,550 --> 01:19:49,620
and these are independently evolved but

1905
01:19:55,970 --> 01:19:52,560
they fit very similar ecological niches

1906
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:55,980
so this flying squirrel is very similar

1907
01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:58,560
to this uh flying phalanga

1908
01:20:04,189 --> 01:20:00,719
this uh groundhog is similar to the

1909
01:20:06,530 --> 01:20:04,199
wombat Etc but they these all evolved

1910
01:20:08,149 --> 01:20:06,540
separately from a common ancestor which

1911
01:20:10,790 --> 01:20:08,159
arrived in Australia

1912
01:20:12,590 --> 01:20:10,800
and then they Diversified in Australia

1913
01:20:16,130 --> 01:20:12,600
independently of these ones even though

1914
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:16,140
they look superficially similar so yeah

1915
01:20:21,770 --> 01:20:18,239
convergent evolution is certainly very

1916
01:20:25,490 --> 01:20:21,780
important and very um striking but I

1917
01:20:27,649 --> 01:20:25,500
would be cautious about drawing too many

1918
01:20:29,450 --> 01:20:27,659
um conclusions when we're talking about

1919
01:20:32,209 --> 01:20:29,460
extraterrestrial life

1920
01:20:34,790 --> 01:20:32,219
but what do you guys think well yeah I

1921
01:20:38,689 --> 01:20:34,800
was wondering with uh the uh this is

1922
01:20:41,810 --> 01:20:38,699
related the dinosaurs were conceivably I

1923
01:20:43,870 --> 01:20:41,820
mean wiped out by the uh asteroid how

1924
01:20:47,390 --> 01:20:43,880
long ago was that was that 50 million

1925
01:20:49,970 --> 01:20:47,400
about 66 million years ago 66 million

1926
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:49,980
years ago and dinosaurs were around for

1927
01:20:56,330 --> 01:20:52,800
for quite a bit longer than 66 million

1928
01:20:58,550 --> 01:20:56,340
years right like uh they were about they

1929
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:58,560
were around for the last five million or

1930
01:21:02,510 --> 01:21:01,199
so years of the Cretaceous Period okay

1931
01:21:03,890 --> 01:21:02,520
so they were only right for about five

1932
01:21:08,689 --> 01:21:03,900
million years before they got wiped out

1933
01:21:10,430 --> 01:21:08,699
yeah okay okay cool how

1934
01:21:14,330 --> 01:21:10,440
so when

1935
01:21:17,870 --> 01:21:14,340
when the dinosaurs arose from the prior

1936
01:21:19,310 --> 01:21:17,880
uh you know evolutionary history of uh

1937
01:21:21,050 --> 01:21:19,320
whatever was three point whatever

1938
01:21:22,729 --> 01:21:21,060
billion years

1939
01:21:25,610 --> 01:21:22,739
and then they got wiped out and then the

1940
01:21:28,130 --> 01:21:25,620
mammals came up it seemed like the life

1941
01:21:31,070 --> 01:21:28,140
like uh in terms of intelligence like

1942
01:21:33,830 --> 01:21:31,080
humans we sort of filled a niche that

1943
01:21:37,669 --> 01:21:33,840
obviously was not really being maximally

1944
01:21:40,130 --> 01:21:37,679
exploited uh previously now what is

1945
01:21:42,590 --> 01:21:40,140
there what what sort of uh ideas do you

1946
01:21:44,870 --> 01:21:42,600
have about why that is why was there not

1947
01:21:48,050 --> 01:21:44,880
an intelligent thing seemingly filling

1948
01:21:51,350 --> 01:21:48,060
in that Niche uh prior to that it was it

1949
01:21:53,270 --> 01:21:51,360
because of uh efficiency of energy like

1950
01:21:55,790 --> 01:21:53,280
our brains with our warm bloodedness

1951
01:21:57,410 --> 01:21:55,800
like what's going on there probably a

1952
01:21:58,970 --> 01:21:57,420
combination of things one of them is

1953
01:22:01,790 --> 01:21:58,980
that nervous systems are very

1954
01:22:05,090 --> 01:22:01,800
energetically expensive so we are

1955
01:22:07,189 --> 01:22:05,100
consume about well in terms of calories

1956
01:22:10,610 --> 01:22:07,199
the nervous system of a human being is

1957
01:22:13,250 --> 01:22:10,620
about 25 of the calories that we consume

1958
01:22:16,250 --> 01:22:13,260
but even though the mass is only about

1959
01:22:18,649 --> 01:22:16,260
five percent so it's got an outsized

1960
01:22:20,390 --> 01:22:18,659
um consumption of energy

1961
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:20,400
um so that could be one thing that

1962
01:22:24,890 --> 01:22:22,800
Evolution doesn't tend to favor very

1963
01:22:26,930 --> 01:22:24,900
large

1964
01:22:28,790 --> 01:22:26,940
um or complex nervous systems because

1965
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:28,800
the animal's already doing the job

1966
01:22:32,930 --> 01:22:31,440
pretty well so there's no need to

1967
01:22:35,390 --> 01:22:32,940
you know

1968
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:35,400
um complexify that tissue that organ

1969
01:22:40,070 --> 01:22:37,440
system much more

1970
01:22:41,930 --> 01:22:40,080
so there could be a cost benefit ratio

1971
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:41,940
going on which is not favorable to the

1972
01:22:46,729 --> 01:22:43,679
evolution of complex

1973
01:22:48,890 --> 01:22:46,739
or super complex nervous systems the

1974
01:22:51,050 --> 01:22:48,900
other thing is that probably you need um

1975
01:22:55,149 --> 01:22:51,060
pre-existing conditions in order to have

1976
01:22:58,810 --> 01:22:55,159
human level intelligence arise such as

1977
01:23:01,550 --> 01:22:58,820
dexterous or semi-dextrous uh fingers

1978
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:01,560
opposable thumbs right yeah opposable

1979
01:23:07,070 --> 01:23:03,360
thumbs and also

1980
01:23:09,890 --> 01:23:07,080
um sociality so that organisms living in

1981
01:23:11,270 --> 01:23:09,900
groups sharing information teaching each

1982
01:23:13,310 --> 01:23:11,280
other stuff

1983
01:23:14,510 --> 01:23:13,320
um passing on what could be called

1984
01:23:17,330 --> 01:23:14,520
culture

1985
01:23:19,250 --> 01:23:17,340
that's probably another constraint and

1986
01:23:22,910 --> 01:23:19,260
so as far as we know it's only happened

1987
01:23:23,870 --> 01:23:22,920
once maybe twice with neanderthals

1988
01:23:26,149 --> 01:23:23,880
um even though there was some

1989
01:23:28,910 --> 01:23:26,159
interbreeding between neanderthals and

1990
01:23:31,970 --> 01:23:28,920
Homo sapiens apparently

1991
01:23:33,229 --> 01:23:31,980
um but certainly a very very rare

1992
01:23:36,050 --> 01:23:33,239
event

1993
01:23:38,570 --> 01:23:36,060
um and so again even if we find animal

1994
01:23:41,450 --> 01:23:38,580
life on other planets uh we shouldn't

1995
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:41,460
expect it to have any human level

1996
01:23:46,430 --> 01:23:43,920
intelligence as an inevitable outcome of

1997
01:23:49,550 --> 01:23:48,169
um so we have a question from the

1998
01:23:52,189 --> 01:23:49,560
audience here how do we explain

1999
01:23:54,530 --> 01:23:52,199
dinosaurs as a matter of evolution given

2000
01:23:57,229 --> 01:23:54,540
their massive sizes

2001
01:23:59,149 --> 01:23:57,239
um yeah in other words

2002
01:24:01,070 --> 01:23:59,159
um would you say Lewis that dinosaurs

2003
01:24:04,070 --> 01:24:01,080
may have become smaller over time to

2004
01:24:06,830 --> 01:24:04,080
better adapt and survive

2005
01:24:09,470 --> 01:24:06,840
well some dinosaurs were actually very

2006
01:24:11,870 --> 01:24:09,480
small some were like chicken sized

2007
01:24:14,810 --> 01:24:11,880
um the size of a chihuahua

2008
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:14,820
I was thinking of mini just then

2009
01:24:18,649 --> 01:24:16,320
um

2010
01:24:21,890 --> 01:24:18,659
oh but some dinosaurs obviously were

2011
01:24:24,470 --> 01:24:21,900
huge in especially the sauropods

2012
01:24:27,649 --> 01:24:24,480
now um

2013
01:24:31,189 --> 01:24:27,659
they were actually in the cenozoic

2014
01:24:33,830 --> 01:24:31,199
era which followed the KT event you did

2015
01:24:38,090 --> 01:24:33,840
get the evolution of massive um mega

2016
01:24:40,310 --> 01:24:38,100
mega fauna in in the mammals so the

2017
01:24:41,990 --> 01:24:40,320
dinosaurs were not the only super large

2018
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:42,000
animals

2019
01:24:45,410 --> 01:24:43,679
um but certainly there were very large

2020
01:24:47,570 --> 01:24:45,420
dinosaurs

2021
01:24:49,790 --> 01:24:47,580
uh it could have been an oxygen level in

2022
01:24:51,290 --> 01:24:49,800
the atmosphere was a bit higher back

2023
01:24:53,870 --> 01:24:51,300
then although I think that's been

2024
01:24:56,330 --> 01:24:53,880
disputed but having more oxygen does

2025
01:24:58,370 --> 01:24:56,340
give you more energy availability so

2026
01:24:59,990 --> 01:24:58,380
that could be one thing there could also

2027
01:25:01,729 --> 01:25:00,000
have been an arms race going on where

2028
01:25:04,370 --> 01:25:01,739
size was

2029
01:25:07,550 --> 01:25:04,380
uh something favored by selection so

2030
01:25:09,950 --> 01:25:07,560
like Predator prey co-evolution favored

2031
01:25:11,030 --> 01:25:09,960
having larger size

2032
01:25:12,290 --> 01:25:11,040
um that could have just been a

2033
01:25:14,870 --> 01:25:12,300
contingent

2034
01:25:16,430 --> 01:25:14,880
thing so we could conceivably have that

2035
01:25:19,370 --> 01:25:16,440
happen again

2036
01:25:21,830 --> 01:25:19,380
the largest land animals these days are

2037
01:25:23,330 --> 01:25:21,840
the um African elephants

2038
01:25:25,729 --> 01:25:23,340
they're pretty big they're about the

2039
01:25:28,330 --> 01:25:25,739
size of a Triceratops but we don't

2040
01:25:30,830 --> 01:25:28,340
currently have anything the size of a

2041
01:25:33,050 --> 01:25:30,840
Brachiosaurus except in the oceans with

2042
01:25:35,090 --> 01:25:33,060
the whales so the Broadway was actually

2043
01:25:37,490 --> 01:25:35,100
the largest animal that's ever lived

2044
01:25:39,110 --> 01:25:37,500
that we know about

2045
01:25:42,709 --> 01:25:39,120
um and it's still around even larger

2046
01:25:45,350 --> 01:25:42,719
than dinosaurs yeah yeah it is oh wow

2047
01:25:47,330 --> 01:25:45,360
in terms of mass uh but it's got you

2048
01:25:49,669 --> 01:25:47,340
know the water the aqueous environment

2049
01:25:52,250 --> 01:25:49,679
to keep it buoyant so you can get very

2050
01:25:54,290 --> 01:25:52,260
long animals yes it doesn't collapse on

2051
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,300
itself or anything right which is why

2052
01:25:59,450 --> 01:25:56,159
when they Beach themselves they they

2053
01:26:00,890 --> 01:25:59,460
Crush their own lungs basically

2054
01:26:02,810 --> 01:26:00,900
um

2055
01:26:04,729 --> 01:26:02,820
but yeah I mean it's not certain why

2056
01:26:07,310 --> 01:26:04,739
dinosaurs got so big I think it was a

2057
01:26:10,370 --> 01:26:07,320
combination of abiotic factors like um

2058
01:26:12,350 --> 01:26:10,380
atmospheric oxygen or some sort of um

2059
01:26:17,209 --> 01:26:12,360
plant

2060
01:26:19,729 --> 01:26:17,219
as they are now although the angiosperms

2061
01:26:21,110 --> 01:26:19,739
did evolve in the Jurassic so those are

2062
01:26:23,209 --> 01:26:21,120
the flowering plants but I don't know if

2063
01:26:25,430 --> 01:26:23,219
that had much of an effect but there

2064
01:26:28,490 --> 01:26:25,440
could have been some food source which

2065
01:26:30,530 --> 01:26:28,500
allowed diners to get very big

2066
01:26:34,370 --> 01:26:30,540
it was it was Pro

2067
01:26:35,270 --> 01:26:34,380
yeah real yes it was definitely Brill

2068
01:26:38,090 --> 01:26:35,280
um

2069
01:26:40,310 --> 01:26:38,100
and also the co-evolutionary arms race

2070
01:26:42,830 --> 01:26:40,320
between predator and prey

2071
01:26:44,030 --> 01:26:42,840
lineages probably favored large size in

2072
01:26:46,370 --> 01:26:44,040
many cases

2073
01:26:47,209 --> 01:26:46,380
mm-hmm

2074
01:26:49,010 --> 01:26:47,219
um

2075
01:26:50,510 --> 01:26:49,020
see if there's any other pictures here

2076
01:26:52,010 --> 01:26:50,520
that I want to show

2077
01:27:02,030 --> 01:26:52,020
um

2078
01:27:03,530 --> 01:27:02,040
intelligence so this is another form of

2079
01:27:06,110 --> 01:27:03,540
complexity because here we're talking

2080
01:27:07,490 --> 01:27:06,120
about cognitive complexity and by

2081
01:27:09,470 --> 01:27:07,500
intelligence

2082
01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:09,480
you know people have come up with

2083
01:27:13,070 --> 01:27:11,280
different definitions and some people

2084
01:27:15,410 --> 01:27:13,080
have denied that you can even have a

2085
01:27:17,030 --> 01:27:15,420
definition of intelligence but in the

2086
01:27:20,030 --> 01:27:17,040
sense that um

2087
01:27:22,010 --> 01:27:20,040
this other author is talking about and

2088
01:27:25,070 --> 01:27:22,020
this is also a very good book

2089
01:27:27,350 --> 01:27:25,080
this is by Kevin and Leyland Darwin's

2090
01:27:28,790 --> 01:27:27,360
unfinished Symphony how culture made the

2091
01:27:31,129 --> 01:27:28,800
the human mind

2092
01:27:33,830 --> 01:27:31,139
in this book he talks about how culture

2093
01:27:35,209 --> 01:27:33,840
is not something that simply arose from

2094
01:27:38,270 --> 01:27:35,219
a large Brain

2095
01:27:39,830 --> 01:27:38,280
but rather something which was involved

2096
01:27:42,530 --> 01:27:39,840
in a

2097
01:27:45,290 --> 01:27:42,540
uh co-evolutionary cycle a positive

2098
01:27:47,450 --> 01:27:45,300
feedback loop with Biology

2099
01:27:49,490 --> 01:27:47,460
so the larger your brain was the more

2100
01:27:50,990 --> 01:27:49,500
culture you could have in in the sense

2101
01:27:52,790 --> 01:27:51,000
that you could share information more

2102
01:27:54,290 --> 01:27:52,800
readily you could try out different

2103
01:27:57,950 --> 01:27:54,300
things

2104
01:28:01,010 --> 01:27:57,960
um and culture itself favored larger

2105
01:28:04,490 --> 01:28:01,020
brains okay and so it was like an auto

2106
01:28:06,649 --> 01:28:04,500
catalytic positive feedback loop so by

2107
01:28:09,050 --> 01:28:06,659
intelligence I mean here the strictly

2108
01:28:11,570 --> 01:28:09,060
anthropomorphic sense of possessing

2109
01:28:13,790 --> 01:28:11,580
certain attributes

2110
01:28:17,030 --> 01:28:13,800
in our cognition such as abstract

2111
01:28:20,149 --> 01:28:17,040
thought complex language with syntax and

2112
01:28:23,290 --> 01:28:20,159
grammar which allows you to construct

2113
01:28:26,390 --> 01:28:23,300
endlessly recursive strings of meaning

2114
01:28:29,450 --> 01:28:26,400
higher order intentionality the ability

2115
01:28:31,250 --> 01:28:29,460
to manipulate tools to pass on cultural

2116
01:28:33,649 --> 01:28:31,260
knowledge between peers and down to

2117
01:28:36,410 --> 01:28:33,659
children as well as to assimilate those

2118
01:28:38,510 --> 01:28:36,420
lessons yourself from your con specifics

2119
01:28:41,930 --> 01:28:38,520
and to learn

2120
01:28:43,310 --> 01:28:41,940
and um in this book he really it's an

2121
01:28:46,189 --> 01:28:43,320
incredible book

2122
01:28:47,510 --> 01:28:46,199
um he goes into animal studies that have

2123
01:28:50,330 --> 01:28:47,520
been done

2124
01:28:53,270 --> 01:28:50,340
um game game theory type simulations

2125
01:28:56,450 --> 01:28:53,280
similar to the ones in the 1970s but

2126
01:28:59,510 --> 01:28:56,460
updated to include learning by the

2127
01:29:02,090 --> 01:28:59,520
agents in this in these games yeah like

2128
01:29:04,430 --> 01:29:02,100
agent-based modeling right exactly sure

2129
01:29:06,169 --> 01:29:04,440
and it seems that learning and imitation

2130
01:29:08,930 --> 01:29:06,179
are incredibly important to the

2131
01:29:10,370 --> 01:29:08,940
evolution of intelligence and yeah well

2132
01:29:12,550 --> 01:29:10,380
that makes sense like memetic

2133
01:29:15,350 --> 01:29:12,560
intellectual development

2134
01:29:18,290 --> 01:29:15,360
and one one cool thing about learning is

2135
01:29:20,570 --> 01:29:18,300
that you don't have to engage in the

2136
01:29:22,370 --> 01:29:20,580
dangerous activities which allow the

2137
01:29:24,649 --> 01:29:22,380
person that learned that

2138
01:29:26,870 --> 01:29:24,659
to you know get gain that knowledge you

2139
01:29:30,110 --> 01:29:26,880
can just copy what they did right and

2140
01:29:31,010 --> 01:29:30,120
pressured the the risks

2141
01:29:34,729 --> 01:29:31,020
um

2142
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:34,739
I am so I I follow this neuroscientist

2143
01:29:40,070 --> 01:29:37,679
and writer Eric Hall and he just won an

2144
01:29:42,649 --> 01:29:40,080
essay contest

2145
01:29:45,530 --> 01:29:42,659
um basically writing about why human

2146
01:29:47,810 --> 01:29:45,540
culture why humans existed so long

2147
01:29:49,970 --> 01:29:47,820
before we saw the emergence of like

2148
01:29:52,310 --> 01:29:49,980
human culture as we would understand it

2149
01:29:54,470 --> 01:29:52,320
in terms of like storytelling art music

2150
01:29:56,930 --> 01:29:54,480
things like that and he had this really

2151
01:29:58,910 --> 01:29:56,940
interesting theory about how or he was

2152
01:30:01,850 --> 01:29:58,920
he was reviewing a book that was talking

2153
01:30:04,430 --> 01:30:01,860
about this theory about how it's only

2154
01:30:07,669 --> 01:30:04,440
when humans were living in environments

2155
01:30:10,310 --> 01:30:07,679
where there are Social Circles grew

2156
01:30:12,410 --> 01:30:10,320
substantially before they started to

2157
01:30:14,090 --> 01:30:12,420
actually develop like meaningful culture

2158
01:30:16,970 --> 01:30:14,100
Beyond just immediate survival

2159
01:30:19,910 --> 01:30:16,980
considerations and he basically

2160
01:30:22,970 --> 01:30:19,920
attributes this to the idea that

2161
01:30:25,910 --> 01:30:22,980
um when you have this broader extended

2162
01:30:27,830 --> 01:30:25,920
network of social connection

2163
01:30:29,450 --> 01:30:27,840
um there's not as much squabbling in

2164
01:30:31,310 --> 01:30:29,460
infighting the way there is and like

2165
01:30:33,530 --> 01:30:31,320
your immediate Social Circle so think

2166
01:30:35,090 --> 01:30:33,540
about how you get things done in a

2167
01:30:36,709 --> 01:30:35,100
professional environment you're not like

2168
01:30:38,510 --> 01:30:36,719
fighting and arguing and beating each

2169
01:30:42,649 --> 01:30:38,520
other up because you have less personal

2170
01:30:44,510 --> 01:30:42,659
involvement and he he talks basically

2171
01:30:47,090 --> 01:30:44,520
about this idea that once you had this

2172
01:30:52,490 --> 01:30:47,100
critical mass of social organization

2173
01:30:53,209 --> 01:30:52,500
found in like Villages or like Community

2174
01:30:55,490 --> 01:30:53,219
um

2175
01:30:58,310 --> 01:30:55,500
and once people's social engagements

2176
01:31:00,290 --> 01:30:58,320
grew Beyond like the immediate family

2177
01:31:02,689 --> 01:31:00,300
um that's really what started that

2178
01:31:05,570 --> 01:31:02,699
flywheel of collaborative cultural

2179
01:31:07,550 --> 01:31:05,580
establishment and creativity

2180
01:31:10,910 --> 01:31:07,560
yeah that does resonate a lot with what

2181
01:31:13,850 --> 01:31:10,920
Leyland also says I guess leylands would

2182
01:31:15,470 --> 01:31:13,860
emphasize the um teaching aspect which

2183
01:31:18,709 --> 01:31:15,480
is pressing on information to your

2184
01:31:21,470 --> 01:31:18,719
Offspring and um

2185
01:31:23,990 --> 01:31:21,480
that involves the most efficient way of

2186
01:31:26,590 --> 01:31:24,000
doing that is using language so in his

2187
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:26,600
view language evolved specifically to

2188
01:31:31,729 --> 01:31:29,520
facilitate the passing of the passing on

2189
01:31:33,350 --> 01:31:31,739
of cultural information from parents to

2190
01:31:36,770 --> 01:31:33,360
offspring and various things like pool

2191
01:31:38,810 --> 01:31:36,780
use or manufacturing certain items or um

2192
01:31:40,550 --> 01:31:38,820
you know knowing where food is in the

2193
01:31:41,990 --> 01:31:40,560
environment

2194
01:31:44,090 --> 01:31:42,000
um but that could have generalized as

2195
01:31:46,850 --> 01:31:44,100
well into a like a general purpose

2196
01:31:49,550 --> 01:31:46,860
module in the brain which could um not

2197
01:31:51,890 --> 01:31:49,560
only be good good at learning how to

2198
01:31:54,169 --> 01:31:51,900
build tools but also learning how to

2199
01:31:57,470 --> 01:31:54,179
conspire or learning how to form

2200
01:32:02,450 --> 01:31:59,450
um there is also some backstabbing and

2201
01:32:03,709 --> 01:32:02,460
sort of Machiavellian uh aspects to this

2202
01:32:05,990 --> 01:32:03,719
as well but there's also a lot of

2203
01:32:08,270 --> 01:32:06,000
Cooperative aspects

2204
01:32:10,729 --> 01:32:08,280
yeah for sure so so we have audience

2205
01:32:12,350 --> 01:32:10,739
comment here saying that I would say

2206
01:32:14,330 --> 01:32:12,360
meaningful culture happened when Iron

2207
01:32:16,189 --> 01:32:14,340
Maiden was formed in the 70s in Britain

2208
01:32:18,410 --> 01:32:16,199
before that it was still the Dark Ages

2209
01:32:21,050 --> 01:32:18,420
yes truly

2210
01:32:24,830 --> 01:32:21,060
um the release of Power Slave is what

2211
01:32:29,750 --> 01:32:24,840
Marx our emergence into modernity

2212
01:32:31,070 --> 01:32:29,760
um yeah I mean I think you know a

2213
01:32:33,950 --> 01:32:31,080
I

2214
01:32:36,770 --> 01:32:33,960
am so fascinated by the historiography

2215
01:32:39,649 --> 01:32:36,780
and values and behaviors that we

2216
01:32:41,270 --> 01:32:39,659
project onto our ancestors and

2217
01:32:43,550 --> 01:32:41,280
predecessors I think there's this

2218
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:43,560
natural inclination

2219
01:32:49,129 --> 01:32:46,800
um candidly I think Born of

2220
01:32:52,910 --> 01:32:49,139
um excessive romanticization of American

2221
01:32:55,070 --> 01:32:52,920
record individualism that existing in

2222
01:32:58,129 --> 01:32:55,080
prehistoric times was extremely

2223
01:33:01,550 --> 01:32:58,139
adversarial and violent and terrible but

2224
01:33:03,950 --> 01:33:02,090
um

2225
01:33:05,330 --> 01:33:03,960
it seems to me that there's consistent

2226
01:33:07,729 --> 01:33:05,340
evidence that it was highly

2227
01:33:09,350 --> 01:33:07,739
collaborative that people behaved very

2228
01:33:10,970 --> 01:33:09,360
similarly to how they behave now with

2229
01:33:12,770 --> 01:33:10,980
like their immediate cohort in terms of

2230
01:33:15,229 --> 01:33:12,780
caretaking

2231
01:33:17,270 --> 01:33:15,239
um I can distinctly remember reading

2232
01:33:17,930 --> 01:33:17,280
about

2233
01:33:22,010 --> 01:33:17,940
um

2234
01:33:24,110 --> 01:33:22,020
uh anthrop like a an archaeological dig

2235
01:33:26,330 --> 01:33:24,120
that Unearthed a prehistoric person

2236
01:33:28,189 --> 01:33:26,340
who'd had a broken leg and healed and

2237
01:33:30,709 --> 01:33:28,199
that was basically taken as an oblique

2238
01:33:32,629 --> 01:33:30,719
indicator that humans were caring for

2239
01:33:35,030 --> 01:33:32,639
their sick and for their ailing instead

2240
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:35,040
of just leaving them to die

2241
01:33:38,090 --> 01:33:35,760
um

2242
01:33:40,430 --> 01:33:38,100
you know and I think

2243
01:33:42,110 --> 01:33:40,440
I I just think that speaks um I mean

2244
01:33:44,270 --> 01:33:42,120
maybe I'm I'm feeling brahmatic on

2245
01:33:46,189 --> 01:33:44,280
Thanksgiving giving Eve but that speaks

2246
01:33:47,930 --> 01:33:46,199
to sort of a pervasive sense of

2247
01:33:49,550 --> 01:33:47,940
cooperation and collaboration that I

2248
01:33:50,990 --> 01:33:49,560
think humans have exhibited for a very

2249
01:33:52,970 --> 01:33:51,000
very long time

2250
01:33:55,750 --> 01:33:52,980
yes and actually that reminds me of

2251
01:33:59,149 --> 01:33:55,760
another book by um David Sloan Wilson

2252
01:34:01,430 --> 01:33:59,159
who is uh he he's actually investigated

2253
01:34:03,530 --> 01:34:01,440
the evolution of religion

2254
01:34:06,649 --> 01:34:03,540
um but he he's written a recent book

2255
01:34:09,830 --> 01:34:06,659
about how we can use darwinian lessons

2256
01:34:12,890 --> 01:34:09,840
in shaping Society to be more

2257
01:34:15,050 --> 01:34:12,900
Humane and cooperative and he does talk

2258
01:34:17,030 --> 01:34:15,060
about group selection as a important

2259
01:34:18,910 --> 01:34:17,040
driver in human evolution

2260
01:34:21,350 --> 01:34:18,920
because if you think about it

2261
01:34:22,610 --> 01:34:21,360
throughout most of our history as humans

2262
01:34:26,149 --> 01:34:22,620
we've been living in small

2263
01:34:28,910 --> 01:34:26,159
hunter-gatherer groups of um no more

2264
01:34:31,610 --> 01:34:28,920
than a few dozen individuals and your

2265
01:34:34,129 --> 01:34:31,620
fate is really tied to the group so yes

2266
01:34:36,950 --> 01:34:34,139
you know help your group

2267
01:34:39,830 --> 01:34:36,960
um even go out of your way to help it

2268
01:34:42,050 --> 01:34:39,840
risk your own life for example

2269
01:34:43,910 --> 01:34:42,060
um then

2270
01:34:46,729 --> 01:34:43,920
you know the group the group as a whole

2271
01:34:48,590 --> 01:34:46,739
can benefit and um so he thinks that

2272
01:34:50,990 --> 01:34:48,600
group selection was important

2273
01:34:53,030 --> 01:34:51,000
um probably is important for any

2274
01:34:54,350 --> 01:34:53,040
species with a significant amount of

2275
01:34:56,270 --> 01:34:54,360
culture

2276
01:34:57,410 --> 01:34:56,280
especially because the information is

2277
01:35:00,110 --> 01:34:57,420
going to be

2278
01:35:01,129 --> 01:35:00,120
uh is going to accumulate

2279
01:35:04,430 --> 01:35:01,139
um

2280
01:35:06,890 --> 01:35:04,440
and be shared so one of the important

2281
01:35:10,370 --> 01:35:06,900
things about culture is that it's acting

2282
01:35:12,770 --> 01:35:10,380
as a reservoir of experience so you can

2283
01:35:15,229 --> 01:35:12,780
tap into that those lessons and that

2284
01:35:17,570 --> 01:35:15,239
information to do things yourself and

2285
01:35:20,270 --> 01:35:17,580
then potentially you can build upon that

2286
01:35:22,729 --> 01:35:20,280
and you know it's information technology

2287
01:35:25,729 --> 01:35:22,739
these days we can see that very clearly

2288
01:35:28,850 --> 01:35:25,739
but um it was always important

2289
01:35:32,030 --> 01:35:28,860
and well and the origin origin if I'm

2290
01:35:34,910 --> 01:35:32,040
not mistaken of even the word meme it it

2291
01:35:37,729 --> 01:35:34,920
or it originates in gene right like it

2292
01:35:40,790 --> 01:35:37,739
it's these things that self-replicate

2293
01:35:43,970 --> 01:35:40,800
some remain that have a lasting power

2294
01:35:46,910 --> 01:35:43,980
others go away upon the Wayside through

2295
01:35:49,370 --> 01:35:46,920
this self-selection process so there's

2296
01:35:51,050 --> 01:35:49,380
this interesting process where it's

2297
01:35:53,629 --> 01:35:51,060
almost like I'm getting the sense that

2298
01:35:56,030 --> 01:35:53,639
uh language and communication and things

2299
01:36:00,250 --> 01:35:56,040
like that are acting

2300
01:36:04,430 --> 01:36:00,260
in a secondary capacity very similarly

2301
01:36:06,410 --> 01:36:04,440
to DNA itself in the sense that

2302
01:36:09,590 --> 01:36:06,420
we are

2303
01:36:14,030 --> 01:36:09,600
able to through our conscious intellects

2304
01:36:16,610 --> 01:36:14,040
almost be choosing the material that

2305
01:36:19,070 --> 01:36:16,620
gets propagated whereas the the DNA it

2306
01:36:22,850 --> 01:36:19,080
produces automatic reflexive uh

2307
01:36:26,930 --> 01:36:22,860
responses in the animals so it

2308
01:36:30,169 --> 01:36:26,940
is it basically like uh it's an extra

2309
01:36:32,990 --> 01:36:30,179
layer on top of the DNA that is uh

2310
01:36:35,090 --> 01:36:33,000
adding to that ability to sort of uh

2311
01:36:38,090 --> 01:36:35,100
have just the best things stick with us

2312
01:36:39,530 --> 01:36:38,100
is that sort of what uh the idea is

2313
01:36:41,810 --> 01:36:39,540
yeah

2314
01:36:43,250 --> 01:36:41,820
um so memes were first mentioned by I

2315
01:36:45,709 --> 01:36:43,260
think came from a French word actually

2316
01:36:47,870 --> 01:36:45,719
but um Richard Dawkins is the one who at

2317
01:36:51,350 --> 01:36:47,880
least popularized the word in his book

2318
01:36:52,850 --> 01:36:51,360
The Selfish Gene which came out in 1976

2319
01:36:53,510 --> 01:36:52,860
I think

2320
01:36:56,270 --> 01:36:53,520
um

2321
01:36:58,850 --> 01:36:56,280
and uh the me Minds here is yeah saying

2322
01:37:00,770 --> 01:36:58,860
that there's this self-replicating

2323
01:37:03,950 --> 01:37:00,780
um

2324
01:37:07,250 --> 01:37:03,960
unit of information which is analogous

2325
01:37:09,470 --> 01:37:07,260
to DNA but it exists as information

2326
01:37:10,669 --> 01:37:09,480
um so in concrete terms I guess that

2327
01:37:14,030 --> 01:37:10,679
would be

2328
01:37:16,610 --> 01:37:14,040
patterns in the brain encoding certain

2329
01:37:19,010 --> 01:37:16,620
meanings or whatever sentences or

2330
01:37:20,990 --> 01:37:19,020
stories and some of those

2331
01:37:22,910 --> 01:37:21,000
um bits of information are better at

2332
01:37:25,010 --> 01:37:22,920
propagating themselves because of their

2333
01:37:27,770 --> 01:37:25,020
effects on the host

2334
01:37:29,629 --> 01:37:27,780
and um

2335
01:37:30,430 --> 01:37:29,639
the the interesting thing

2336
01:37:32,930 --> 01:37:30,440
um

2337
01:37:34,850 --> 01:37:32,940
the mimetics

2338
01:37:37,310 --> 01:37:34,860
um is not really taken that seriously I

2339
01:37:39,470 --> 01:37:37,320
should say by most anthropologists and

2340
01:37:42,890 --> 01:37:39,480
evolutionary biologists

2341
01:37:45,229 --> 01:37:42,900
possibly Dawkins went too far but um

2342
01:37:48,709 --> 01:37:45,239
there is a sense in which certain ideas

2343
01:37:50,750 --> 01:37:48,719
are more virile than others okay

2344
01:37:53,750 --> 01:37:50,760
by virtue of the effects that they have

2345
01:37:56,390 --> 01:37:53,760
on their hosts so the brains in which

2346
01:37:59,209 --> 01:37:56,400
they reside and there's also a sense in

2347
01:38:00,649 --> 01:37:59,219
which some ideas are pathogenic instead

2348
01:38:02,810 --> 01:38:00,659
of helpful

2349
01:38:04,010 --> 01:38:02,820
so think about like

2350
01:38:07,610 --> 01:38:04,020
um how

2351
01:38:09,950 --> 01:38:07,620
I don't know suicide bombers or

2352
01:38:11,629 --> 01:38:09,960
um religious fundamentalists to

2353
01:38:14,110 --> 01:38:11,639
believe that you know you should

2354
01:38:17,510 --> 01:38:14,120
exterminate members of other religions

2355
01:38:19,970 --> 01:38:17,520
these are toxic and pathogenic memes

2356
01:38:22,430 --> 01:38:19,980
which can spread and they can actually

2357
01:38:23,390 --> 01:38:22,440
co-opt

2358
01:38:25,850 --> 01:38:23,400
um certain

2359
01:38:27,950 --> 01:38:25,860
structures in the brain let's say which

2360
01:38:29,870 --> 01:38:27,960
evolves with other things but then they

2361
01:38:30,530 --> 01:38:29,880
can go bad

2362
01:38:33,169 --> 01:38:30,540
um

2363
01:38:35,149 --> 01:38:33,179
that's very simplistically put but I

2364
01:38:36,590 --> 01:38:35,159
think you sort of know what I mean yeah

2365
01:38:39,110 --> 01:38:36,600
well and that's that's very interesting

2366
01:38:41,689 --> 01:38:39,120
because that that's a lot like uh like

2367
01:38:43,970 --> 01:38:41,699
the behaviors are similar I'm thinking

2368
01:38:46,810 --> 01:38:43,980
to the underlying things with genes

2369
01:38:49,189 --> 01:38:46,820
where uh you know like

2370
01:38:51,790 --> 01:38:49,199
something that can be under some

2371
01:38:54,890 --> 01:38:51,800
circumstances helpful can understand

2372
01:38:56,990 --> 01:38:54,900
be harmful so like in the small group

2373
01:38:59,090 --> 01:38:57,000
situation that you're describing

2374
01:39:01,390 --> 01:38:59,100
um I I mean I can immediately imagine

2375
01:39:04,610 --> 01:39:01,400
many different instances where a

2376
01:39:08,149 --> 01:39:04,620
hunter-gatherer taking on a in quote

2377
01:39:11,810 --> 01:39:08,159
suicide bomber psychology uh could end

2378
01:39:14,149 --> 01:39:11,820
up saving his little group uh you know

2379
01:39:16,250 --> 01:39:14,159
so that's very interesting that that

2380
01:39:18,470 --> 01:39:16,260
they can kind of maybe misfire in some

2381
01:39:21,530 --> 01:39:18,480
ways at times just like normal like a

2382
01:39:24,169 --> 01:39:21,540
genes underlying that right exactly you

2383
01:39:25,490 --> 01:39:24,179
can have you can also have selection at

2384
01:39:27,169 --> 01:39:25,500
different levels of biological

2385
01:39:29,990 --> 01:39:27,179
organization

2386
01:39:32,270 --> 01:39:30,000
um happening at Cross purposes so what's

2387
01:39:34,310 --> 01:39:32,280
group good for the group may not be good

2388
01:39:37,370 --> 01:39:34,320
for certain individuals within the group

2389
01:39:39,890 --> 01:39:37,380
and vice versa but sometimes they can be

2390
01:39:42,229 --> 01:39:39,900
aligned sometimes your fate really is

2391
01:39:44,209 --> 01:39:42,239
tied to the good of the group in which

2392
01:39:45,709 --> 01:39:44,219
case um group selection could come into

2393
01:39:47,570 --> 01:39:45,719
play

2394
01:39:50,570 --> 01:39:47,580
right so um

2395
01:39:53,390 --> 01:39:50,580
um now I mentioned tool use okay which

2396
01:39:55,910 --> 01:39:53,400
is often been touted as the factor

2397
01:39:58,550 --> 01:39:55,920
favoring the co-evolutionary process

2398
01:39:59,990 --> 01:39:58,560
leading to intelligence but um according

2399
01:40:01,790 --> 01:40:00,000
to Leyland

2400
01:40:04,850 --> 01:40:01,800
um it's actually the teaching of tool

2401
01:40:08,450 --> 01:40:04,860
use and other skills um which was the

2402
01:40:10,310 --> 01:40:08,460
critical selective environment and um a

2403
01:40:12,590 --> 01:40:10,320
language I came out of that because it's

2404
01:40:15,590 --> 01:40:12,600
such an efficient way of conveying

2405
01:40:16,850 --> 01:40:15,600
information and meaning to uh right a

2406
01:40:18,649 --> 01:40:16,860
student

2407
01:40:22,970 --> 01:40:18,659
um

2408
01:40:25,850 --> 01:40:22,980
does intelligence make technological

2409
01:40:27,890 --> 01:40:25,860
Society inevitable so this also ties

2410
01:40:30,470 --> 01:40:27,900
into the Fermi Paradox and thinking

2411
01:40:32,030 --> 01:40:30,480
about extraterrestrials because just

2412
01:40:34,129 --> 01:40:32,040
because there are potentially

2413
01:40:36,709 --> 01:40:34,139
intelligent beings out there doesn't

2414
01:40:38,530 --> 01:40:36,719
mean that they will ever develop what we

2415
01:40:41,390 --> 01:40:38,540
would consider technological Society

2416
01:40:43,970 --> 01:40:41,400
okay there could be certain constraints

2417
01:40:44,629 --> 01:40:43,980
on that first of all

2418
01:40:47,270 --> 01:40:44,639
um

2419
01:40:49,910 --> 01:40:47,280
just bad luck the contingent events in

2420
01:40:51,110 --> 01:40:49,920
the environment like a meteorite or a

2421
01:40:53,510 --> 01:40:51,120
volcano

2422
01:40:54,649 --> 01:40:53,520
could Wipe Out the entire population of

2423
01:40:57,470 --> 01:40:54,659
organisms

2424
01:41:00,290 --> 01:40:57,480
so you know human beings once faced a

2425
01:41:02,810 --> 01:41:00,300
very tight genetic bottleneck where

2426
01:41:04,010 --> 01:41:02,820
there were only about 20 000 humans on

2427
01:41:05,510 --> 01:41:04,020
Earth

2428
01:41:07,729 --> 01:41:05,520
um and that they could easily have gone

2429
01:41:08,450 --> 01:41:07,739
extinct right there

2430
01:41:10,729 --> 01:41:08,460
um

2431
01:41:12,890 --> 01:41:10,739
so that's one thing

2432
01:41:15,169 --> 01:41:12,900
um if we think about you know permanent

2433
01:41:17,629 --> 01:41:15,179
human settlements like city-states and

2434
01:41:21,169 --> 01:41:17,639
industrial societies

2435
01:41:24,169 --> 01:41:21,179
there's a requisite there for uh prior

2436
01:41:26,390 --> 01:41:24,179
domestication of animals and agriculture

2437
01:41:28,729 --> 01:41:26,400
so certain animals aren't just not

2438
01:41:30,709 --> 01:41:28,739
suitable for agriculture which is maybe

2439
01:41:33,189 --> 01:41:30,719
why the Australian Aborigines never

2440
01:41:36,530 --> 01:41:33,199
developed um you know settled into

2441
01:41:38,750 --> 01:41:36,540
permanent settlements they've you know

2442
01:41:42,169 --> 01:41:38,760
for tens of thousands of years

2443
01:41:44,090 --> 01:41:42,179
um up till when um Europeans discovered

2444
01:41:45,109 --> 01:41:44,100
Australia

2445
01:41:47,330 --> 01:41:45,119
um they were just living as

2446
01:41:48,770 --> 01:41:47,340
hunter-gatherers and it could just be

2447
01:41:50,109 --> 01:41:48,780
because the animals there were not

2448
01:41:53,870 --> 01:41:50,119
suitable for

2449
01:41:56,930 --> 01:41:53,880
domestication so

2450
01:41:58,129 --> 01:41:56,940
uh and just culture so certain cultures

2451
01:42:01,250 --> 01:41:58,139
just um

2452
01:42:04,370 --> 01:42:01,260
can develop where staying put is just

2453
01:42:07,370 --> 01:42:04,380
not viewed as a good thing it could be

2454
01:42:09,530 --> 01:42:07,380
religious reasons or other reasons

2455
01:42:12,830 --> 01:42:09,540
um if you think about the the amount of

2456
01:42:16,970 --> 01:42:12,840
coercion that's taken place in human um

2457
01:42:20,270 --> 01:42:16,980
societal Evolution so large um

2458
01:42:21,410 --> 01:42:20,280
settler populations could um accumulate

2459
01:42:24,530 --> 01:42:21,420
um

2460
01:42:26,270 --> 01:42:24,540
uh whatever food or they could build up

2461
01:42:28,250 --> 01:42:26,280
armies because they've got more division

2462
01:42:29,570 --> 01:42:28,260
of labor then they can force other

2463
01:42:32,930 --> 01:42:29,580
groups to

2464
01:42:35,330 --> 01:42:32,940
you know right to do that bidding or

2465
01:42:38,870 --> 01:42:35,340
they would exterminate them yeah it's

2466
01:42:42,550 --> 01:42:38,880
it's like almost like economies of scale

2467
01:42:45,790 --> 01:42:42,560
um yeah around human survival so we have

2468
01:42:49,129 --> 01:42:45,800
a question from friend of the show

2469
01:42:52,250 --> 01:42:49,139
simonfly how big a factor is environment

2470
01:42:54,590 --> 01:42:52,260
to the development of complex life

2471
01:42:56,930 --> 01:42:54,600
the environment is extremely

2472
01:42:58,850 --> 01:42:56,940
I mean it's really Central uh whether

2473
01:43:00,530 --> 01:42:58,860
you're thinking of biotic or abiotic

2474
01:43:01,609 --> 01:43:00,540
factors

2475
01:43:03,410 --> 01:43:01,619
um

2476
01:43:05,149 --> 01:43:03,420
so let's see if we're thinking about

2477
01:43:08,750 --> 01:43:05,159
abiotic factors that would be things

2478
01:43:10,310 --> 01:43:08,760
like temperature acidity availability of

2479
01:43:12,649 --> 01:43:10,320
water

2480
01:43:15,169 --> 01:43:12,659
um and organisms have got countless

2481
01:43:18,229 --> 01:43:15,179
adaptations you know tailored to dealing

2482
01:43:19,609 --> 01:43:18,239
with different abiotic conditions if you

2483
01:43:21,410 --> 01:43:19,619
think about like when you go out into

2484
01:43:22,850 --> 01:43:21,420
the desert there are some plants which

2485
01:43:25,669 --> 01:43:22,860
have evolved to

2486
01:43:27,470 --> 01:43:25,679
retain moisture whereas if you go into a

2487
01:43:30,290 --> 01:43:27,480
jungle they're going to have different

2488
01:43:31,850 --> 01:43:30,300
adaptations because the um right you

2489
01:43:34,010 --> 01:43:31,860
know the availability of water is so

2490
01:43:36,350 --> 01:43:34,020
much greater there but then there's also

2491
01:43:38,270 --> 01:43:36,360
the um

2492
01:43:41,450 --> 01:43:38,280
the uh

2493
01:43:43,010 --> 01:43:41,460
the biotic environment which is how do

2494
01:43:45,850 --> 01:43:43,020
you interact with other living things

2495
01:43:49,010 --> 01:43:45,860
and there we're dealing with parasites

2496
01:43:51,530 --> 01:43:49,020
Predators prey

2497
01:43:54,169 --> 01:43:51,540
right at the endosymbiones which live

2498
01:43:57,530 --> 01:43:54,179
inside of us we've evolved

2499
01:43:59,090 --> 01:43:57,540
and they've evolved oh man I don't I

2500
01:44:01,609 --> 01:43:59,100
don't have any parasites or anything

2501
01:44:05,149 --> 01:44:01,619
living at me no I'm I'm talking about

2502
01:44:08,330 --> 01:44:05,159
benefits right right yeah like gut flora

2503
01:44:10,550 --> 01:44:08,340
and stuff yeah sure so I mean

2504
01:44:13,250 --> 01:44:10,560
I mean it's really difficult to

2505
01:44:15,410 --> 01:44:13,260
sometimes separate the two because um

2506
01:44:19,609 --> 01:44:15,420
the uh the other partner is itself

2507
01:44:21,410 --> 01:44:19,619
evolving to the abiotic factors as well

2508
01:44:22,850 --> 01:44:21,420
um but yeah I mean they're both

2509
01:44:25,209 --> 01:44:22,860
extremely important

2510
01:44:28,129 --> 01:44:25,219
um and then often you get like a very

2511
01:44:30,470 --> 01:44:28,139
important event like a seminal event

2512
01:44:32,450 --> 01:44:30,480
which changes everything

2513
01:44:34,669 --> 01:44:32,460
um for example the great oxidation event

2514
01:44:36,649 --> 01:44:34,679
which happened very

2515
01:44:39,950 --> 01:44:36,659
you know long long time ago billions of

2516
01:44:42,169 --> 01:44:39,960
years ago when a lot of oxygen became

2517
01:44:45,109 --> 01:44:42,179
available in the atmosphere

2518
01:44:47,390 --> 01:44:45,119
that allowed for well that opened the

2519
01:44:49,790 --> 01:44:47,400
way for aerobic respiration to evolve

2520
01:44:53,330 --> 01:44:49,800
that's when you use O2 as the electron

2521
01:44:55,250 --> 01:44:53,340
transport the electron acceptor and then

2522
01:44:57,410 --> 01:44:55,260
that set off other things so you have

2523
01:44:59,870 --> 01:44:57,420
these kind of revolutionary events which

2524
01:45:04,430 --> 01:44:59,880
change the nature of the game

2525
01:45:09,470 --> 01:45:06,890
and do we know why that event occurred

2526
01:45:11,270 --> 01:45:09,480
the uh oxygenation event or whatever

2527
01:45:14,890 --> 01:45:11,280
it's called yeah the oxidation event

2528
01:45:21,729 --> 01:45:18,229
yeah it wasn't plants per se it was

2529
01:45:23,810 --> 01:45:21,739
cyanobacteria but they um by the way

2530
01:45:26,689 --> 01:45:23,820
cyanobacteria are

2531
01:45:28,910 --> 01:45:26,699
I mentioned the mitochondria are derived

2532
01:45:31,729 --> 01:45:28,920
from Free Living bacteria which entered

2533
01:45:34,609 --> 01:45:31,739
into an endosymbiosis with a archaeal

2534
01:45:36,890 --> 01:45:34,619
cell it turns out that chloroplasts

2535
01:45:38,930 --> 01:45:36,900
which live in Plants those are the sites

2536
01:45:41,709 --> 01:45:38,940
of photosynthesis

2537
01:45:44,689 --> 01:45:41,719
um in Plants they themselves came from

2538
01:45:47,870 --> 01:45:44,699
cyanobacteria so that was another uh

2539
01:45:53,810 --> 01:45:51,010
um but the release of oxygen from

2540
01:45:56,450 --> 01:45:53,820
photosynthesis okay so that took a long

2541
01:45:58,189 --> 01:45:56,460
time uh to build up in the atmosphere

2542
01:46:00,530 --> 01:45:58,199
but once it did

2543
01:46:04,070 --> 01:46:00,540
some organisms had to adapt to that

2544
01:46:07,490 --> 01:46:04,080
because oxygen is often you know it was

2545
01:46:09,830 --> 01:46:07,500
poisonous to life back then and so you

2546
01:46:12,050 --> 01:46:09,840
had to either hide from the oxygen or

2547
01:46:14,450 --> 01:46:12,060
you had to adapt to it and many

2548
01:46:18,649 --> 01:46:14,460
organisms did adapt and they found ways

2549
01:46:22,250 --> 01:46:20,990
I've actually got a graph here actually

2550
01:46:24,590 --> 01:46:22,260
of the um

2551
01:46:27,229 --> 01:46:24,600
the oxidation

2552
01:46:30,410 --> 01:46:27,239
where is it

2553
01:46:32,890 --> 01:46:30,420
is it oxygenation yeah

2554
01:46:34,970 --> 01:46:32,900
cool damn it look

2555
01:46:37,609 --> 01:46:34,980
foiled again

2556
01:46:41,570 --> 01:46:37,619
but this is showing like the level of

2557
01:46:44,090 --> 01:46:41,580
using uh geochemical signatures this is

2558
01:46:46,490 --> 01:46:44,100
the time in billions of years

2559
01:46:48,709 --> 01:46:46,500
um so this is three billion years ago

2560
01:46:51,890 --> 01:46:48,719
the red is the upper limit and the the

2561
01:46:53,629 --> 01:46:51,900
green is the lower estimate so this is

2562
01:46:55,250 --> 01:46:53,639
the increase in oxygen in the atmosphere

2563
01:46:59,090 --> 01:46:55,260
okay

2564
01:47:02,930 --> 01:47:00,590
have you guys heard of the Cambrian

2565
01:47:07,250 --> 01:47:02,940
explosion

2566
01:47:08,510 --> 01:47:07,260
place

2567
01:47:11,689 --> 01:47:08,520
um

2568
01:47:15,470 --> 01:47:11,699
kind of around here I guess

2569
01:47:17,629 --> 01:47:15,480
um so that was the evolution of most of

2570
01:47:20,810 --> 01:47:17,639
the phyla or body plans in the animal

2571
01:47:22,490 --> 01:47:20,820
kingdom this took place about 538

2572
01:47:23,870 --> 01:47:22,500
million years ago

2573
01:47:25,189 --> 01:47:23,880
and

2574
01:47:27,770 --> 01:47:25,199
um that's when you got this great

2575
01:47:29,390 --> 01:47:27,780
diversification in animal life nobody

2576
01:47:31,370 --> 01:47:29,400
knows why that happened

2577
01:47:34,250 --> 01:47:31,380
it's called an explosion because it

2578
01:47:35,870 --> 01:47:34,260
happened relatively in a relatively

2579
01:47:37,790 --> 01:47:35,880
short period of a few million years

2580
01:47:42,590 --> 01:47:37,800
maybe

2581
01:47:45,950 --> 01:47:42,600
13 million years although some estimates

2582
01:47:47,689 --> 01:47:45,960
push it out to 25 million so um against

2583
01:47:50,510 --> 01:47:47,699
the backdrop of Earth's history that's

2584
01:47:53,689 --> 01:47:50,520
very that's a very short time but most

2585
01:47:57,430 --> 01:47:53,699
of the phyla uh arose during that period

2586
01:47:59,390 --> 01:47:57,440
and um there could have been different

2587
01:48:02,570 --> 01:47:59,400
environmental factors like an increase

2588
01:48:04,370 --> 01:48:02,580
in oxygen or ironically anoxia which is

2589
01:48:06,530 --> 01:48:04,380
the opposite because then that would

2590
01:48:08,990 --> 01:48:06,540
force some animals to seek out different

2591
01:48:12,770 --> 01:48:09,000
environments

2592
01:48:14,330 --> 01:48:12,780
um especially mobile organisms

2593
01:48:16,669 --> 01:48:14,340
um it could have been co-evolutionary

2594
01:48:18,830 --> 01:48:16,679
arms races between

2595
01:48:21,050 --> 01:48:18,840
predator and prey so this is when eyes

2596
01:48:24,050 --> 01:48:21,060
evolved and that's a very useful thing

2597
01:48:25,370 --> 01:48:24,060
to have to escape Predators or to find

2598
01:48:27,050 --> 01:48:25,380
prey

2599
01:48:29,510 --> 01:48:27,060
um and then you also get the evolution

2600
01:48:31,129 --> 01:48:29,520
of like hard parts and weapons and stuff

2601
01:48:33,709 --> 01:48:31,139
like that

2602
01:48:36,109 --> 01:48:33,719
um but nobody knows it was probably a

2603
01:48:38,689 --> 01:48:36,119
Confluence of factors

2604
01:48:40,430 --> 01:48:38,699
and again that also shows the

2605
01:48:42,890 --> 01:48:40,440
contingency of life

2606
01:48:45,350 --> 01:48:42,900
um because probably you would need

2607
01:48:47,990 --> 01:48:45,360
different factors coming together at the

2608
01:48:49,729 --> 01:48:48,000
right time and in the right amounts to

2609
01:48:50,990 --> 01:48:49,739
produce something so it's not just like

2610
01:48:54,169 --> 01:48:51,000
an inevitable

2611
01:48:56,209 --> 01:48:54,179
unfolding of complexity

2612
01:48:58,790 --> 01:48:56,219
um if you were to run the tape again

2613
01:49:01,250 --> 01:48:58,800
it might have a very different outcome

2614
01:49:03,410 --> 01:49:01,260
yeah we have we have audience member

2615
01:49:05,330 --> 01:49:03,420
here the Earth which is a perfect

2616
01:49:07,550 --> 01:49:05,340
username for the subject of our

2617
01:49:09,950 --> 01:49:07,560
discussion tonight mentioning that there

2618
01:49:12,890 --> 01:49:09,960
was a similar event the edia Karen

2619
01:49:15,590 --> 01:49:12,900
explosion which was not as successful

2620
01:49:18,109 --> 01:49:15,600
the ediacaran fauna preceded the

2621
01:49:21,770 --> 01:49:18,119
Cambrian fauna and uh there wasn't as

2622
01:49:24,229 --> 01:49:21,780
much diversification back then uh but

2623
01:49:26,390 --> 01:49:24,239
there was there seems to be there seems

2624
01:49:28,850 --> 01:49:26,400
to have been a sort of a mini explosion

2625
01:49:30,350 --> 01:49:28,860
back then as well not as exuberance as

2626
01:49:33,890 --> 01:49:30,360
the Cambrian though

2627
01:49:36,590 --> 01:49:33,900
so we yeah oh I was gonna say we have

2628
01:49:38,090 --> 01:49:36,600
another question from Simon um asking if

2629
01:49:41,390 --> 01:49:38,100
there was a big environmental change

2630
01:49:43,609 --> 01:49:41,400
after the extinction of the Dinosaurs

2631
01:49:47,450 --> 01:49:43,619
yeah there was the um

2632
01:49:49,790 --> 01:49:47,460
so something like 60 of all the species

2633
01:49:51,830 --> 01:49:49,800
on Earth died

2634
01:49:53,810 --> 01:49:51,840
um there was the extinction not just of

2635
01:49:55,850 --> 01:49:53,820
the dinosaurs but other groups like

2636
01:49:58,250 --> 01:49:55,860
certain marine reptiles like the

2637
01:50:00,109 --> 01:49:58,260
ichthyosaurs and the plesiosaurs and

2638
01:50:02,330 --> 01:50:00,119
also the uh the pterosaurs which were

2639
01:50:03,050 --> 01:50:02,340
the flying reptiles

2640
01:50:05,510 --> 01:50:03,060
um

2641
01:50:07,189 --> 01:50:05,520
some animals some groups made it through

2642
01:50:08,930 --> 01:50:07,199
like the crocodilians

2643
01:50:10,550 --> 01:50:08,940
which actually are older than the

2644
01:50:11,330 --> 01:50:10,560
dinosaurs

2645
01:50:17,930 --> 01:50:11,340
um

2646
01:50:20,689 --> 01:50:17,940
more diverse or at least they continued

2647
01:50:22,490 --> 01:50:20,699
from the Jurassic and stuff like that so

2648
01:50:23,870 --> 01:50:22,500
you got the extinction of some groups

2649
01:50:26,390 --> 01:50:23,880
and the um

2650
01:50:28,790 --> 01:50:26,400
the uh diversification or at least

2651
01:50:30,070 --> 01:50:28,800
survival of others

2652
01:50:33,709 --> 01:50:30,080
um

2653
01:50:35,870 --> 01:50:33,719
I forget exactly what the

2654
01:50:36,890 --> 01:50:35,880
the abiotic changes were in the

2655
01:50:38,870 --> 01:50:36,900
environment

2656
01:50:41,689 --> 01:50:38,880
I think there were more ice ages which

2657
01:50:42,669 --> 01:50:41,699
took place in the cenozoic so after the

2658
01:50:45,470 --> 01:50:42,679
extinction

2659
01:50:47,390 --> 01:50:45,480
certainly right after the um

2660
01:50:49,189 --> 01:50:47,400
the the meteorite impact you would have

2661
01:50:52,129 --> 01:50:49,199
gotten a um

2662
01:50:53,990 --> 01:50:52,139
shutdown in photosynthesis across much

2663
01:50:56,689 --> 01:50:54,000
of the world because of the debris

2664
01:50:59,270 --> 01:50:56,699
kicked up by the impact and so that shut

2665
01:51:01,729 --> 01:50:59,280
down a lot of plants and then that led

2666
01:51:04,010 --> 01:51:01,739
to the collapse of ecosystems

2667
01:51:07,850 --> 01:51:04,020
but some animals were able to survive

2668
01:51:10,430 --> 01:51:07,860
that and some plants obviously as well

2669
01:51:13,010 --> 01:51:10,440
um I'd have to look at the

2670
01:51:14,990 --> 01:51:13,020
exact um

2671
01:51:17,629 --> 01:51:15,000
the other changes which took place

2672
01:51:19,970 --> 01:51:17,639
though when um

2673
01:51:22,790 --> 01:51:19,980
in the discussions around complexity

2674
01:51:26,709 --> 01:51:22,800
science and complex systems

2675
01:51:29,390 --> 01:51:26,719
um they'll term these kinds of events

2676
01:51:31,490 --> 01:51:29,400
bifurcations and that these are

2677
01:51:35,570 --> 01:51:31,500
bifurcation events in the sense that

2678
01:51:37,550 --> 01:51:35,580
they effectively shift the Paradigm of

2679
01:51:39,410 --> 01:51:37,560
whatever is going on at a particular

2680
01:51:41,330 --> 01:51:39,420
point in time

2681
01:51:44,930 --> 01:51:41,340
and that's what I keep thinking of as

2682
01:51:47,030 --> 01:51:44,940
you describe these you know explosions

2683
01:51:49,850 --> 01:51:47,040
um throughout history

2684
01:51:51,590 --> 01:51:49,860
and punctuations so mass extinction

2685
01:51:54,770 --> 01:51:51,600
events um

2686
01:51:57,350 --> 01:51:54,780
wipe out a lot of the diversity in the

2687
01:51:59,930 --> 01:51:57,360
uh biosphere but then they ironically

2688
01:52:03,410 --> 01:51:59,940
open the way for diversity to have to

2689
01:52:05,570 --> 01:52:03,420
fluoresce again because the ecological

2690
01:52:08,149 --> 01:52:05,580
niches are left empty without

2691
01:52:10,970 --> 01:52:08,159
competition and so the surviving

2692
01:52:14,149 --> 01:52:10,980
lineages can then diversify to fill up

2693
01:52:16,609 --> 01:52:14,159
those niches so often you get when you

2694
01:52:19,430 --> 01:52:16,619
get mass extinctions you also get the

2695
01:52:21,530 --> 01:52:19,440
the rapid uh filling in of those vacant

2696
01:52:23,330 --> 01:52:21,540
niches afterwards

2697
01:52:26,330 --> 01:52:23,340
right yeah almost like a power vacuum

2698
01:52:29,030 --> 01:52:26,340
yeah

2699
01:52:31,430 --> 01:52:29,040
um so we'll be wrapping this stream up

2700
01:52:33,950 --> 01:52:31,440
in a few minutes at the top of the hour

2701
01:52:35,450 --> 01:52:33,960
so anyone tuning in like feel free to

2702
01:52:44,209 --> 01:52:35,460
post your questions and I'll get them

2703
01:52:49,070 --> 01:52:47,149
um so Lewis what are are there

2704
01:52:50,950 --> 01:52:49,080
how do I phrase those

2705
01:52:53,090 --> 01:52:50,960
how have

2706
01:52:55,310 --> 01:52:53,100
in your

2707
01:52:58,250 --> 01:52:55,320
um throughout your education and work

2708
01:53:01,910 --> 01:52:58,260
how have the theories around complex

2709
01:53:04,810 --> 01:53:01,920
life changed or adjusted

2710
01:53:07,910 --> 01:53:04,820
I think that they've moved away from

2711
01:53:11,629 --> 01:53:07,920
gene-centric views to a more kind of

2712
01:53:13,669 --> 01:53:11,639
uh systems type biology so seeing the

2713
01:53:16,129 --> 01:53:13,679
interactions of many parts

2714
01:53:19,189 --> 01:53:16,139
and then seeing that as a whole so kind

2715
01:53:21,890 --> 01:53:19,199
of a more holistic view of life

2716
01:53:24,649 --> 01:53:21,900
it it reminds me I've heard a lot more

2717
01:53:26,930 --> 01:53:24,659
discussion around epigenetics and

2718
01:53:29,090 --> 01:53:26,940
epigenetics yeah so and it seems like

2719
01:53:31,970 --> 01:53:29,100
that's come into more of the Forefront

2720
01:53:34,070 --> 01:53:31,980
of the conversation as well exactly and

2721
01:53:35,810 --> 01:53:34,080
that also it ties into what Leyland was

2722
01:53:38,090 --> 01:53:35,820
talking about in his book

2723
01:53:40,070 --> 01:53:38,100
um Dolan's unfinished business uh

2724
01:53:41,810 --> 01:53:40,080
Symphony uh which is that there's

2725
01:53:43,310 --> 01:53:41,820
different kinds of inheritance so

2726
01:53:45,709 --> 01:53:43,320
there's obviously genetic inheritance

2727
01:53:48,290 --> 01:53:45,719
but then there's also epigenetic effects

2728
01:53:50,629 --> 01:53:48,300
and also culture so

2729
01:53:52,189 --> 01:53:50,639
yeah seeing more of the um diversity of

2730
01:53:54,470 --> 01:53:52,199
different kinds of inheritance is

2731
01:53:56,510 --> 01:53:54,480
certainly another one

2732
01:53:59,030 --> 01:53:56,520
um then there's also the hierarchical

2733
01:54:02,990 --> 01:53:59,040
selection view favored by Stephen J

2734
01:54:05,270 --> 01:54:03,000
Gould and wrote This Book

2735
01:54:07,070 --> 01:54:05,280
you know I read this book um I finished

2736
01:54:08,990 --> 01:54:07,080
reading it like two years ago it took me

2737
01:54:12,109 --> 01:54:09,000
a year to read this because

2738
01:54:15,109 --> 01:54:12,119
it's over a thousand pages of text

2739
01:54:17,870 --> 01:54:15,119
oh my yeah this was his last book before

2740
01:54:20,270 --> 01:54:17,880
he died in 2003. he's a real one too

2741
01:54:22,189 --> 01:54:20,280
Stephen J Gould is great oh yeah I love

2742
01:54:23,649 --> 01:54:22,199
him yeah yeah well this book is great

2743
01:54:27,350 --> 01:54:23,659
because it goes into

2744
01:54:29,450 --> 01:54:27,360
an expanded view of Darwinism away from

2745
01:54:32,030 --> 01:54:29,460
just the individual level to multiple

2746
01:54:34,189 --> 01:54:32,040
levels and um he also talks about

2747
01:54:36,050 --> 01:54:34,199
constraints in both the positive and the

2748
01:54:39,590 --> 01:54:36,060
negative sense that there could be

2749
01:54:43,910 --> 01:54:39,600
channels of change along which

2750
01:54:44,510 --> 01:54:43,920
um evolution is sort of biased and that

2751
01:54:46,850 --> 01:54:44,520
um

2752
01:54:47,930 --> 01:54:46,860
and stuff like that so this is really

2753
01:54:49,310 --> 01:54:47,940
really rich

2754
01:54:52,430 --> 01:54:49,320
um book

2755
01:54:55,189 --> 01:54:52,440
um but that's another one um so Niles

2756
01:54:57,109 --> 01:54:55,199
Eldridge was actually the guy who came

2757
01:54:59,570 --> 01:54:57,119
up with the um idea of punctuated

2758
01:55:01,790 --> 01:54:59,580
equilibria even though Stephen J Gould

2759
01:55:04,910 --> 01:55:01,800
popularized and developed it further

2760
01:55:07,010 --> 01:55:04,920
with uh Eldridge but Eldridge is still

2761
01:55:12,530 --> 01:55:07,020
around he um

2762
01:55:13,609 --> 01:55:12,540
makes a big uh focuses a lot on um the

2763
01:55:16,729 --> 01:55:13,619
idea that there could be different

2764
01:55:18,830 --> 01:55:16,739
levels of selection and you know from

2765
01:55:20,629 --> 01:55:18,840
the group from the individual or

2766
01:55:23,570 --> 01:55:20,639
actually from the gene to the individual

2767
01:55:27,649 --> 01:55:23,580
to the group to the species and even

2768
01:55:33,109 --> 01:55:29,510
um and then also that there are certain

2769
01:55:35,209 --> 01:55:33,119
patterns which are non-roots useful so

2770
01:55:38,209 --> 01:55:35,219
you know you can think of a species as

2771
01:55:42,229 --> 01:55:38,219
being an individual in its own right and

2772
01:55:45,229 --> 01:55:42,239
the Persistence of that individual

2773
01:55:48,290 --> 01:55:45,239
um is not dependent on what any one of

2774
01:55:50,950 --> 01:55:48,300
its individual constituents does right

2775
01:55:55,070 --> 01:55:50,960
so like a higher level kind of reality

2776
01:55:57,649 --> 01:55:55,080
or ontology to the components

2777
01:56:00,410 --> 01:55:57,659
mm-hmm that that's a really uh

2778
01:56:02,629 --> 01:56:00,420
interesting point it makes me think of

2779
01:56:06,169 --> 01:56:02,639
uh something I was reading about this

2780
01:56:09,709 --> 01:56:06,179
with slime molds where you can make a

2781
01:56:13,609 --> 01:56:09,719
topographical map and put slime molds

2782
01:56:16,189 --> 01:56:13,619
down and they naturally replicate on the

2783
01:56:19,250 --> 01:56:16,199
topography and spread out along

2784
01:56:22,970 --> 01:56:19,260
essentially the exact same channels that

2785
01:56:25,910 --> 01:56:22,980
humans have on the Earth's topography

2786
01:56:28,609 --> 01:56:25,920
and so if there's a lot of metaphor

2787
01:56:30,530 --> 01:56:28,619
there well if you look yeah exactly yeah

2788
01:56:32,209 --> 01:56:30,540
like we're slime or whatever it is well

2789
01:56:34,250 --> 01:56:32,219
that's the thing it's like if you look

2790
01:56:37,490 --> 01:56:34,260
from uh I keep hitting my mic from an

2791
01:56:39,830 --> 01:56:37,500
abstract perspective and you see these

2792
01:56:41,810 --> 01:56:39,840
uh cities and rows and stuff and then

2793
01:56:43,850 --> 01:56:41,820
you look at the slime mold and it's

2794
01:56:46,070 --> 01:56:43,860
exactly the same it really starts to

2795
01:56:49,310 --> 01:56:46,080
make me wonder uh what are we as

2796
01:56:51,590 --> 01:56:49,320
individuals and if we're looking through

2797
01:56:54,470 --> 01:56:51,600
a microscope at the Earth and we see a

2798
01:56:56,390 --> 01:56:54,480
tiny sliver on the side of a rock with a

2799
01:56:58,850 --> 01:56:56,400
scum layer on it

2800
01:57:00,770 --> 01:56:58,860
is it really uh we think we're

2801
01:57:04,550 --> 01:57:00,780
individuals but are we really what's

2802
01:57:06,290 --> 01:57:04,560
going on there yeah that's I I'm so

2803
01:57:09,410 --> 01:57:06,300
fascinated on the intersection again

2804
01:57:11,990 --> 01:57:09,420
with uh complexity and complex systems

2805
01:57:14,450 --> 01:57:12,000
particularly like agent based systems

2806
01:57:16,609 --> 01:57:14,460
where there's no hierarchical rule

2807
01:57:17,350 --> 01:57:16,619
structure but rather

2808
01:57:20,930 --> 01:57:17,360
um

2809
01:57:21,910 --> 01:57:20,940
behaviors are

2810
01:57:24,770 --> 01:57:21,920
um

2811
01:57:27,310 --> 01:57:24,780
informed on like the node to node

2812
01:57:30,770 --> 01:57:27,320
relationships rather than an overarching

2813
01:57:32,510 --> 01:57:30,780
type of rules to drive particular

2814
01:57:34,910 --> 01:57:32,520
engagements

2815
01:57:38,510 --> 01:57:34,920
um and Campbell to your point like

2816
01:57:40,850 --> 01:57:38,520
whether we're talking this is this is

2817
01:57:44,030 --> 01:57:40,860
what for me is so fascinating is we see

2818
01:57:46,070 --> 01:57:44,040
these repetition of patterns on so many

2819
01:57:47,870 --> 01:57:46,080
different scales

2820
01:57:50,030 --> 01:57:47,880
um through this sort of distributed

2821
01:57:53,390 --> 01:57:50,040
systems whether it's a biological system

2822
01:57:55,970 --> 01:57:53,400
like a body or cell or a collection of

2823
01:57:58,370 --> 01:57:55,980
humans or other animals or

2824
01:58:00,649 --> 01:57:58,380
um how cities and communities evolve and

2825
01:58:03,589 --> 01:58:00,659
grow or how slime mold does like these

2826
01:58:06,970 --> 01:58:03,599
are sort of repetitions that exist at

2827
01:58:09,709 --> 01:58:06,980
all different levels of um

2828
01:58:12,530 --> 01:58:09,719
existence and within I think the

2829
01:58:15,050 --> 01:58:12,540
biological hierarchies that consistently

2830
01:58:17,089 --> 01:58:15,060
demonstrate various similar uh behaviors

2831
01:58:20,209 --> 01:58:17,099
around self-organization it's super

2832
01:58:25,609 --> 01:58:23,450
yeah it really is

2833
01:58:27,709 --> 01:58:25,619
um I really like the idea of emergent

2834
01:58:28,609 --> 01:58:27,719
properties

2835
01:58:30,589 --> 01:58:28,619
um

2836
01:58:32,930 --> 01:58:30,599
that they could be properties of systems

2837
01:58:36,530 --> 01:58:32,940
which are not present at lower levels

2838
01:58:40,490 --> 01:58:38,930
you know obviously all these um claims

2839
01:58:43,430 --> 01:58:40,500
are contested and they're controversial

2840
01:58:45,770 --> 01:58:43,440
but I think we are um going into a new

2841
01:58:47,270 --> 01:58:45,780
paradigm of biology which moves away

2842
01:58:49,189 --> 01:58:47,280
from the

2843
01:58:51,410 --> 01:58:49,199
the what the you know obviously

2844
01:58:54,770 --> 01:58:51,420
darwinian evolution is very important

2845
01:58:56,390 --> 01:58:54,780
but um we have to expand it and um think

2846
01:58:59,030 --> 01:58:56,400
about different levels of interaction

2847
01:59:01,250 --> 01:58:59,040
and organization as well

2848
01:59:03,410 --> 01:59:01,260
uh what's the other thing um there's

2849
01:59:06,950 --> 01:59:03,420
another aspect of biology which is come

2850
01:59:09,109 --> 01:59:06,960
come to the fore in recent years of the

2851
01:59:13,790 --> 01:59:10,609
thinking about

2852
01:59:16,129 --> 01:59:13,800
um endosymbiosis so

2853
01:59:17,750 --> 01:59:16,139
um Lin Mark gulius went too far with

2854
01:59:19,729 --> 01:59:17,760
this she thought that all of the

2855
01:59:22,970 --> 01:59:19,739
structures in um

2856
01:59:25,729 --> 01:59:22,980
the eukaryotic cell derived from Free

2857
01:59:27,890 --> 01:59:25,739
Living bacteria that's probably not the

2858
01:59:31,609 --> 01:59:27,900
case but certainly the mitochondria and

2859
01:59:33,709 --> 01:59:31,619
the chloroplasts did and um

2860
01:59:35,629 --> 01:59:33,719
you know obviously there's that um which

2861
01:59:39,109 --> 01:59:35,639
I've talked about today but there's also

2862
01:59:42,050 --> 01:59:39,119
the um the important role that bacteria

2863
01:59:43,189 --> 01:59:42,060
play in us and also just

2864
01:59:46,370 --> 01:59:43,199
how

2865
01:59:47,450 --> 01:59:46,380
symbiosis is so important for really all

2866
01:59:50,930 --> 01:59:47,460
of life

2867
01:59:56,629 --> 01:59:54,050
so yeah I've read before that it's like

2868
01:59:59,390 --> 01:59:56,639
uh of all the individual cells in your

2869
02:00:01,970 --> 01:59:59,400
body it's like there are more cells that

2870
02:00:05,089 --> 02:00:01,980
are not your DNA than are your DNA

2871
02:00:07,669 --> 02:00:05,099
inside you that's so crazy to me I don't

2872
02:00:09,649 --> 02:00:07,679
like thickest me weird feelings yeah

2873
02:00:11,570 --> 02:00:09,659
it's like a reliving thing about that

2874
02:00:13,550 --> 02:00:11,580
yeah

2875
02:00:16,310 --> 02:00:13,560
it's like it's it's sort of like a ship

2876
02:00:17,930 --> 02:00:16,320
of Theseus situation where at what point

2877
02:00:21,050 --> 02:00:17,940
do you stop being you and start

2878
02:00:23,330 --> 02:00:21,060
disputing this these other dnas exactly

2879
02:00:26,930 --> 02:00:23,340
yeah did you have you guys watched this

2880
02:00:29,510 --> 02:00:26,940
movie called the color out of space no

2881
02:00:34,189 --> 02:00:29,520
it's actually based on a Lovecraft uh

2882
02:00:35,930 --> 02:00:34,199
that's an old sci-fi movie yeah yeah oh

2883
02:00:37,729 --> 02:00:35,940
no well this one's got Nicholas Cage in

2884
02:00:40,070 --> 02:00:37,739
it I think oh so never mind it's not

2885
02:00:41,990 --> 02:00:40,080
that it's not that old but I don't know

2886
02:00:44,870 --> 02:00:42,000
if there was a previous version but this

2887
02:00:47,450 --> 02:00:44,880
is a relatively new one

2888
02:00:49,070 --> 02:00:47,460
um but in that in that movie there was a

2889
02:00:50,629 --> 02:00:49,080
very interesting kind of philosophical

2890
02:00:52,010 --> 02:00:50,639
Point

2891
02:00:55,129 --> 02:00:52,020
um

2892
02:00:55,669 --> 02:00:55,139
which is that the individual

2893
02:00:57,890 --> 02:00:55,679
um

2894
02:01:00,169 --> 02:00:57,900
it wants to maintain its Integrity right

2895
02:01:02,390 --> 02:01:00,179
it's separation from the environment and

2896
02:01:04,790 --> 02:01:02,400
we sort of we regard anything that

2897
02:01:06,950 --> 02:01:04,800
invades us or is like continuous with us

2898
02:01:09,109 --> 02:01:06,960
with a sense of Horror

2899
02:01:11,629 --> 02:01:09,119
um it's like Cronenberg

2900
02:01:14,510 --> 02:01:11,639
like like the body horror of David

2901
02:01:15,290 --> 02:01:14,520
Cronenberg draws yeah yeah video drum

2902
02:01:18,290 --> 02:01:15,300
yeah

2903
02:01:20,570 --> 02:01:18,300
but um in that movie there's a uh

2904
02:01:23,149 --> 02:01:20,580
there's a glimpse or a vision of the

2905
02:01:25,270 --> 02:01:23,159
alien planet where it's basically just

2906
02:01:27,649 --> 02:01:25,280
like a roiling massive

2907
02:01:30,169 --> 02:01:27,659
worm-like creatures and they're kind of

2908
02:01:32,390 --> 02:01:30,179
all inside of each other and they don't

2909
02:01:34,490 --> 02:01:32,400
really have a sense of individuality or

2910
02:01:37,250 --> 02:01:34,500
privacy and I just wonder like whether

2911
02:01:39,530 --> 02:01:37,260
that could be a viable

2912
02:01:41,990 --> 02:01:39,540
type of alien life or whether the

2913
02:01:43,430 --> 02:01:42,000
individual will always try to maintain

2914
02:01:46,790 --> 02:01:43,440
its own

2915
02:01:49,550 --> 02:01:46,800
you know dignity so to speak

2916
02:01:53,570 --> 02:01:51,350
I'm wonderful

2917
02:01:59,629 --> 02:01:57,070
Kimball any final questions for Lewis

2918
02:02:01,609 --> 02:01:59,639
uh I don't think so that's been

2919
02:02:04,189 --> 02:02:01,619
extremely interesting I really

2920
02:02:06,910 --> 02:02:04,199
appreciated uh this conversation thank

2921
02:02:10,790 --> 02:02:06,920
you so much for giving us that uh

2922
02:02:12,290 --> 02:02:10,800
presentation please yeah this was this

2923
02:02:15,050 --> 02:02:12,300
was super cool

2924
02:02:18,169 --> 02:02:15,060
um really nice to get into something in

2925
02:02:20,330 --> 02:02:18,179
depth on which you uh possess subject

2926
02:02:22,669 --> 02:02:20,340
matter expertise and also to just you

2927
02:02:25,010 --> 02:02:22,679
know give us more exposure to different

2928
02:02:27,649 --> 02:02:25,020
topics and ideas

2929
02:02:29,870 --> 02:02:27,659
um also really cool to see uh audience

2930
02:02:31,850 --> 02:02:29,880
chiming in with questions

2931
02:02:34,669 --> 02:02:31,860
um and having this opportunity for like

2932
02:02:38,270 --> 02:02:34,679
interaction it's great

2933
02:02:39,649 --> 02:02:38,280
it was awesome thanks so yeah so we'll

2934
02:02:41,030 --> 02:02:39,659
get things wrapped up for the evening

2935
02:02:44,089 --> 02:02:41,040
here

2936
02:02:47,450 --> 02:02:44,099
um we'll be back next week Wednesday 9

2937
02:02:50,209 --> 02:02:47,460
p.m Eastern 6 p.m Pacific uh as it

2938
02:02:51,169 --> 02:02:50,219
stands right now it's a

2939
02:02:53,629 --> 02:02:51,179
um

2940
02:02:54,890 --> 02:02:53,639
TBD not totally sure what we're going to

2941
02:02:57,410 --> 02:02:54,900
talk about we don't have a guest

2942
02:03:01,250 --> 02:02:57,420
scheduled but thereafter we'll be

2943
02:03:03,770 --> 02:03:01,260
hosting Erica Lukes on December 7th oh

2944
02:03:06,830 --> 02:03:03,780
yeah Brian sentis is he coming next week

2945
02:03:08,510 --> 02:03:06,840
next week yeah oh fantastic oh my God

2946
02:03:10,430 --> 02:03:08,520
I'm delighted never mind Brian sent his

2947
02:03:12,589 --> 02:03:10,440
next week I can't wait

2948
02:03:14,450 --> 02:03:12,599
um so yes we'll be talking to him if you

2949
02:03:16,370 --> 02:03:14,460
are unfamiliar with Brian sentus I

2950
02:03:18,169 --> 02:03:16,380
highly recommend checking out uh his

2951
02:03:20,270 --> 02:03:18,179
interviews with Lewis on Lewis's Channel

2952
02:03:23,169 --> 02:03:20,280
seriously great stuff

2953
02:03:29,270 --> 02:03:27,109
blog what's it called Skunk Works Skunk

2954
02:03:31,550 --> 02:03:29,280
Works yeah the Skunk Works bug it's a

2955
02:03:32,810 --> 02:03:31,560
deeply interdisciplinary intellectual

2956
02:03:35,450 --> 02:03:32,820
who

2957
02:03:37,669 --> 02:03:35,460
um I think has some of some truly

2958
02:03:39,530 --> 02:03:37,679
brilliant things to say about ufology as

2959
02:03:40,850 --> 02:03:39,540
both like a cultural and social

2960
02:03:43,010 --> 02:03:40,860
phenomena

2961
02:03:44,390 --> 02:03:43,020
um and a he's coming on honestly because

2962
02:03:46,129 --> 02:03:44,400
I've listened to those interviews so

2963
02:03:47,750 --> 02:03:46,139
many times that Lewis has done with them

2964
02:03:49,550 --> 02:03:47,760
that I'm excited at the prospect of

2965
02:03:50,270 --> 02:03:49,560
talking to him

2966
02:03:51,890 --> 02:03:50,280
um

2967
02:03:53,990 --> 02:03:51,900
so yeah again

2968
02:03:57,770 --> 02:03:54,000
um everyone have a great Thanksgiving we

2969
02:03:59,510 --> 02:03:57,780
will regroup next Wednesday uh same time

2970
02:04:02,510 --> 02:03:59,520
same place

2971
02:04:04,189 --> 02:04:02,520
um and uh otherwise hang in there we

2972
02:04:05,689 --> 02:04:04,199
can't wait to see you again

2973
02:04:12,280 --> 02:04:05,699
cheers

2974
02:04:53,470 --> 02:04:47,560
[Music]

2975
02:05:47,089 --> 02:04:56,390
thank you